2025 Master Spas Twilight Review

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Congrats. The LSX 800 with Master Clear is about as good as it gets right now for a salt setup.

Looking at your source water, I would absolutely fill straight from the tap. No pre filter needed.

Here's why.

pH 7.85, a little high, but normal. You'll lower it during startup.

TA 164, definitely high. This is the number you'll spend the most time adjusting. I'd target 60 to 80 ppm for a salt tub.

Calcium 53 ppm is low, but your reported total hardness of 192 ppm is actually right in the sweet spot. I would verify with your own test kit before adding calcium. Don't blindly chase numbers from the municipal report.

TDS 329 ppm is very low and perfectly fine.

Chloramine 2.44 ppm is common city water. Once you get the tub heated, balanced, and the salt system running, it won't be an issue.

For pre filters, I generally don't see enough benefit for your water profile to justify the hassle or cost. If you were on well water with iron, manganese, sulfur, or extremely hard water, different story.

For test kits, buy the Taylor K 2006C.

Not the standard K 2006.

The "C" version simply gives you larger reagent bottles so you're not replacing them every few months.

That's the gold standard kit for chlorine spas.

You'll get: Free chlorine Combined chlorine pH TA CH CYA

Everything you actually need.

On enzymes, yes, I'm a fan.

The biggest benefit isn't reducing chlorine demand directly. It's reducing the amount of oils, lotions, sweat, and organics that the chlorine has to deal with.

That means: Cleaner water Less scum line Lower sanitizer demand Less shocking

For a Master Clear system running around 1 ppm free chlorine, enzymes make even more sense.

A lot of owners use Spa Marvel with good results. We've tested about 10 different enzyme sanitizers and Spa Marvel was Far and Away the best. HIt up Guen at [email protected] tub and she can get you set up with it. Or buy it here: https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/

The startup order I'd follow:

1. Fill the tub.

2. Heat the water.

3. Test and lower TA first.

4. Once TA is where you want it, adjust pH.

5. Verify calcium hardness before adding anything.

6. Add the Master Clear salt according to the startup instructions.

7. Install and activate the Smart Cell.

8. Let the system establish sanitizer production.

9. Confirm free chlorine with the Taylor kit before heavy use.

One thing I'd ignore is Master's published pH target of 7.0 to 7.2. That's lower than I like to run.

I generally prefer 7.4 to 7.6 once everything stabilizes. It's easier on equipment and feels better for most people.

Also remember that Master's salt system is not like most salt systems. Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. Master's is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds roughly 1 ppm steady. That's why it works.

Thanks mike I appreciate it :-)

If you ever need anything hit us up :-) happy hot tubbing :-)

Beth,

You’re actually running into a pretty good filter here.

The reason you’re having trouble finding a quality double lounger is that the better manufacturers generally don’t build them.

Most of the market today is driven by repeat buyers, and repeat buyers rarely choose double loungers. First time buyers often love the idea because when you sit in one dry, it feels comfortable and supportive.

The problem starts when you add water.

People float. That means loungers take up a lot of space, can be difficult to stay seated in, and often end up being the least used seat in the tub. After owning a spa for a few years, many buyers decide they'd rather have more open seating and better therapy positions.

That's why you mostly see double loungers coming from smaller manufacturers using older shell designs. They can be built inexpensively, but they're generally not what you'll find from the stronger brands at the higher end of the market.

Before you chase a double lounger, I'd ask one question:

Have you owned a hot tub before, and do you already know that you both genuinely enjoy lounge seats in the water?

That answer usually determines whether a double lounger is a must have or something that sounds better in the showroom than it works in real life.

Have you had a hot tub before?

I really wouldn't put my money into a ThermoSpa this is a really low end product if you're trying to stay in that 4 or 5K range I would look at used units before I would spend my money on something built like this. The problem is it's impossible to build a good quality shell with Reliable Plumbing and good parts and good insulation and good framing materials and sell it at 5K.

Would you like me to have a look around your area and see if there's any good used units?

Yeah that would be great I'm in the Hartford Connecticut area

https://www.facebook.com/share/18uyRMJKSo/ this is a god tub and a good deal.

https://www.facebook.com/share/17kvyRC1H4/ again good tub good price

Yep good deal its worth around $6500-$7k if working in good condition with the cover

Michael, Michigan winters change the answer fast.

You want full foam, open cell insulation. That is still the gold standard. Don’t buy the story that a thin perimeter blanket magically beats a fully foamed cabinet. It doesn’t.

For low chemical smell, most systems are just dumb timer salt systems. Higher salt, sanitizer swings up and down, more corrosion risk.

The one system I’m actually excited about right now is Master’s on demand salt system. It tests and doses as needed, runs about 30 percent lower salt, and holds around 1 ppm steady. That is why it feels cleaner and smells way less chemical.

Brand wise, I’d be looking at Master first, then Instinct if you want the best value, then Jacuzzi or Artesian depending on the exact model and price. Master is the cleanest fit for your two concerns, insulation and water care.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me your budget range and I can narrow this down hard.

What are you trying to stay under, 10k, 12k, or 15k?

Thanks for your quick reply and I'm trying to stay around $15,000. I have read about the Jacuzzi True Water system and I was wondering how the J-325 model would compare to a Master Spa. Per the Jacuzzi website, it looks like I can add the True Water system to this model. There's a local store that is advertising the J-325 model for $12,368 without the True Water system.

Lots of good 6 person tubs in Palm Springs.

Service should not be the problem there. Most major brands can cover 92262.

Cost is the spread. Instinct starts around $8,500 delivered and installed, strong value, solid build, good jet package. Master Clarity is usually the next step. If you want heavier therapy jets, Twilight is where the big high flow jets start moving real muscle, usually more like the low to mid teens. You can spend $18k to $20k easy, but you don’t always get better build.

I’d look at Instinct first for value, Master Clarity for better seating and features, Twilight if strong jets are the priority. Self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and common Balboa, CMP, Waterway parts are the stuff that matters.

What budget range are you trying to stay inside?

Hi,

The first thing to understand is that buying a hot tub is surprisingly difficult because almost all the information buyers get is marketing.

You see waterfalls, lights, speakers, touchscreens, fancy jet names, and sales pitches.

What you rarely get is information about the stuff that actually determines whether the tub is still running properly 15 years from now.

The expensive parts of a hot tub are the bones.

A self supported shell.

Glued and clamped plumbing.

Compression fit jet bodies.

Full foam insulation.

A heavy timber frame.

Those are the things that cost real money to build and they're the things that matter most over the long haul.

Everything else is mostly marketing.

Steel frames, perimeter insulation systems, unclamped plumbing, cradle supported shells, there are always sales pitches explaining why they're "better", but in reality they're usually cost reduction measures dressed up as innovation.

We've been saying the same thing for over 15 years because the fundamentals haven't changed.

If a manufacturer isn't doing those core things well, you're paying for fluff.

On the brands you're looking at, I would personally remove Vita and Aspen from the list.

Neither is built to what I consider a premium standard.

Vita's higher end models use a decent shell, but they're still using construction methods that don't compete with the best builders. The 300 Series in particular relies on thinner cradle supported shell designs, steel framing, lower grade insulation strategies, and unclamped plumbing.

Aspen isn't a brand I would spend my money on either.

Hot Spring is a different conversation.

Hot Spring builds a decent hot tub.

I don't put them in the "bad tub" category at all.

The problem is value.

They're now built in Mexico, owned by a large corporate group, and carry all the costs that come with that structure.

Tariffs.

Transportation.

Corporate overhead.

Marketing costs.

Dealer network costs.

On top of that, they rely heavily on proprietary components and a dealer centric service model.

That means you're often locked into your dealer for parts and repairs.

A lot of people don't realize that many of the components inside these tubs are based on common industry technology, but the connectors and systems have been modified so you're pushed back into the manufacturer's ecosystem.

That's great for corporate profits.

It's not great for owners.

The bigger issue across the industry is ownership.

Private equity groups and large corporations have bought a huge percentage of the hot tub market over the last decade.

Prices have gone up.

Build quality has often gone down.

Marketing budgets have exploded.

That's not a coincidence.

Master is one of the reasons I talk so much about ownership.

They're still privately held.

They're one of the last major manufacturers where the people running the company are hot tub people instead of corporate accountants.

That matters.

As for dealers, this is another area where the industry hasn't really caught up with reality.

Many buyers still think the local dealer is the most important part of the purchase.

On proprietary brands like Hot Spring and Jacuzzi, that's partly true because the manufacturers intentionally keep you tied into their service network.

But the dealer model itself is fading fast.

Today, national service networks matter more than local showrooms.

Master and Instinct both have service coverage throughout your area. I checked Tomahawk and there is coverage available, so service would not be a concern.

The bigger advantage is that you're avoiding a lot of the dealer markup that often adds thousands to the purchase price.

For your actual use case, relaxation, a lounger, room for family visits, and not necessarily intensive therapy, I would lean toward an Instinct model before I would buy a Vita.

You get better fundamentals.

Better long term value.

Better serviceability.

And a build philosophy that focuses on the stuff that matters.

As for therapy, don't overcomplicate it.

The sales presentations around pumps, horsepower, proprietary jet names, and miracle massage systems are mostly noise.

Big high flow jets move muscle mass.

Small jets don't.

That's really the secret.

The reason tubs like the Master Twilight series cost more is because they contain more of the expensive large therapy jets.

If relaxation is the goal, you don't necessarily need to chase that.

If therapy is the goal, then jet count means very little and jet size means everything.

On sanitation, I would completely ignore the peroxide recommendation.

That's old technology and not something I recommend.

A hot tub needs a halogen sanitizer.

That means chlorine or bromine.

Then you can reduce chemical usage with enzymes, minerals, or a modern on demand salt system.

The newer on demand salt systems are the best option available today because they're automated and maintain sanitizer levels consistently with less chemical handling.

That said, if you don't want salt, that's perfectly fine.

A simple bromine or chlorine program paired with enzymes works very well and is still what many owners use successfully.

One last thing.

Absolutely get on my Private Buyer Service before you buy anything.

I don't care whether you end up with Master, Instinct, Jacuzzi, Vita, or something else.

I'll help evaluate the quotes, negotiate pricing, and make sure you're getting a fair deal.

If I can't save you money, I'll refund the fee.

More importantly, you get Buyer Protection.

If a seller isn't delivering the level of service they promised, you don't have to fight that battle by yourself. You come to me and I bring the leverage of millions of dollars in annual purchasing power to the conversation.

That changes how quickly problems get solved.

Here's the link:

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Send me the Vita model numbers and quotes you're considering and I'll tell you exactly how they stack up.

Lydell,

The old Vanguard was not a bad tub. Twenty five years is proof of that. But your complaints are the exact weak spots of Hot Spring.

The Moto Massage is a gimmick. It breaks, performance fades, and it never really hits hard. The rest of the jetting is mostly small low flow jets, which feel busy but do not move much muscle mass. That is why the massage has always felt underwhelming.

The newer Hot Spring stuff is also a lot more expensive than it should be now. Mexico build, tariff hit, corporate ownership, heavy marketing layer, plus proprietary parts. Good tubs, but expensive to buy and expensive to keep in the field long term. Very dealer dependent too.

For your use case, no lounger, open seating, strong therapy, cold winters, and a couple using it daily, I would be looking hard at Master Spas Twilight or Artesian Elite.

Twilight is probably the closest match to what you actually want long term. Big high flow therapy jets, open seating layouts, full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, easy parts support. The therapy is not even in the same league as the Vanguard because it uses more of the expensive large jets that actually move muscle.

On seat depth, there is not really a magic layout here. Nobody under about 5 foot is going to fit perfectly in the main captain’s chair of a serious therapy tub. If they did, everybody taller would be sitting half out of the water. The real fix is a good weighted booster cushion. It keeps you planted, raises you into the jet zone properly, and works way better than chasing some weird shallow seating layout that usually compromises the rest of the tub.

Artesian Elite is also worth a look. Still a decent therapy tub overall. My issue is they slipped after the equity buyout and stopped clamping plumbing, so at current pricing I usually lean Master first unless the Artesian quote is aggressive.

Cold Cincinnati winters also matter. Full foam insulation matters there. Perimeter insulation is brochure nonsense once temperatures really drop.

Your 9 foot slab gives you plenty of room for most 7 foot to 7.5 foot models comfortably.

For sizing, I would probably steer you toward:

Master Twilight 7.25 or 8.25
Artesian Captiva or grand Cayman (fewer of the expensive high flow jets)

Those all fit the no lounger, open seating, stronger therapy goal much better than a modern Vanguard.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. If you get written quotes, send them to me and I’ll route you to the same sellers, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection if anybody starts playing games.

What budget range are you targeting?

Thanks for the quick reply. The budget question is tough. We have already had the sticker shock of having not looked at prices for a couple of decades. We are willing to spend what it is worth to get the quality we want, but evaluate the price-features relationship constantly.

Sorry, I forgot to add to my reply: What are the approximate prices for those 4 tubs?

Twilight hot tubs and Artesian Captiva or grand Cayman should come in through retail run between $13-$15k

Below that Look at Instinct spas... same build quality from the same factory but no marketing budget which knocks of 30% it was $11-12k in stores but once we got it direct for our customers it dropped to $8600 delivered and installed and its built like a tank... https://instinctspas.com/

We are ready to move forward with purchase. How do we connect with your buying service?

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Sign up here and we will contact you and jump on a quick call to go thorough stuff or just get going with pricing, what ever works best for you.

Also, I can see replies here but I do not get the emails, not even in spam/junk folder. Fyi

ok bills on it :-)

Gale,

What you are describing is usually normal, especially if the two sides are running different jet packages.

The larger high flow therapy jets often feel less “spicy” than the smaller jets because they are moving a lot more water volume at lower pressure. The small jets feel sharp and aggressive because they are high pressure, low flow. That tricks people into thinking they are stronger.

In reality, the bigger jets are usually doing more actual therapy work. They move the whole muscle mass instead of just hammering the skin layer.

That is why over time the larger therapy jets tend to do a much better job preventing tension buildup in the back, hips, shoulders, and legs. The tiny jets feel exciting during a wet test, but they do not move nearly as much muscle.

Now, if one entire side of the tub is dramatically underperforming, like obviously weak flow across every seat, then yes, it is smart that they are checking pump configuration, diverter position, jet opening, and possible hose restriction. That is the right troubleshooting path.

But based on what you described so far, especially if the “weaker” side has the larger therapy jets, there is a good chance what you are feeling is just the difference between high flow therapy and high pressure small jets.

Instinct has actually been pretty solid overall about support, so the fact they had you checking pumps, hoses, and sending video is a good sign they are taking it seriously.

Quick question, does the “weaker” side have the larger therapy jets compared to the sharper feeling side?

Ray,

Both are really well built tubs. You are in good territory either way.

Both are US built, privately held, and coming from one of the oldest manufacturers in the US, also one of the largest hot tub producers in the world. Parts, service, reliability, overall build, all solid.

The Twilight 8.25 is the better massage tub in my opinion.

It has the more expensive jet package, with more of the large high flow therapy jets that actually move muscle mass. That matters more than pump count or showroom flash.

The LSX 900 is the bigger, flashier tub. That is its obvious advantage. More size, more presence, more luxury feel. But the highest line is not always the best therapy line. Sometimes it is just more lighting, trim, and magic show.

You will hear three pumps pitched as a big advantage. It can be, but bigger pumps with smart diverters can be more efficient and can push serious water to the main therapy seats. That is why the Twilight punches so hard for massage.

So my take is simple.

If you want the bigger tub and flashier package, LSX 900.

If you want the better high end therapy massage, Twilight 8.25.

Send me the written on both. I can usually route you through the same seller, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection so if there is ever a problem, you are not fighting the seller alone. We apply pressure for you.

What are they quoting you on each one?

Master Twilight seems to consistently be your top recommendation for a therapy tub, and I understand why. The Instinct does not float my boat from the look of it, even if the price point is preferable --I’d much rather pay under $14k than over. So for me, it’s the Master Twilight 7.2 or the Aspen Spa. Overall, the full foam seems a better way to go than the insulative blanket, however, we have rodents galore here on our rural island. Just wondering if that’s a consideration as to type of interior insulation. Our local mechanic earns a good living repairing non-garaged vehicles that had mice and rats get into the wiring. Also, our Aspen Spa dealer did not think salt spas were worth the extra risk of corrosion, so what is your take on the Master Twilight upgraded to salt treatment? Finally, our deck surface is 50” above grade, so we’ll have to build a frame to set it on — are there any specs online you point people towards regarding surface build under the hot tubs?

They made better tubs in 2018 than they do now... likely worth it if its working and not leaking.

Hi Mitchell,

Thanks for reaching out — and your reaction to the Bullfrog A7L is not unusual. Bullfrog makes a nice tub in some ways, but if you’re looking for strong deep-tissue jet therapy, they are usually not at the top of my list.

For the strongest, most therapeutic massage, I usually look at manufacturers that focus on plumbing efficiency, good jet design, proper pump-to-jet ratios, and fewer gimmicky high jet-count layouts. Brands/models worth looking at would include:

Beachcomber — very strong therapy and excellent efficiency

Artesian Elite / Island series — good jet pressure and therapy layouts

Sundance 880/980 series — strong massage, especially in the larger therapy seats

Jacuzzi J-400/J-500 series — solid upper-tier therapy

Master Spas Twilight / Michael Phelps series — often strong, depending on model and layout

The Instinct models I’ve talked about are very competitive in that category. They are built more around real therapy performance than just flashy features, and they generally deliver stronger, more direct massage than what you likely felt in the Bullfrog A7L. I would put them above Bullfrog for deep-tissue feel, especially if jet strength is one of your top priorities.

The key thing is not just “horsepower” or number of jets — it’s whether the tub has the right balance of pump power, plumbing, jet size, and air control. A lot of tubs look impressive on paper but feel weak in a wet test because they’re trying to run too many jets at once.

Since you’re in zip code 34762, send me any local dealers or models you’re considering and I can help you sort out which ones are truly strong therapy tubs versus just good marketing.

Best,

Chris

Hot Tub University

Thank you for the info, I am looking into a smaller unit that I can fit in lanai because I don't want to go through architectural review in the villages, permits etc, I had one in my lanai here before. had a Nordic Crown XL for 8 years only issue was a fuse. But looking for more lower back, hip and leg work in a new one. I am down to the Master spa TS 6.2, Jacuzzi 315, and the Bullfrog A5D. But am leaning toward the Master Spa TS 6.2 from southeast Spas in Tampa. Any other competitive models you can suggest would be appreciated and your thoughts on the TS 6
2 . I need one no bigger than. 78x78x34. That way I can get through lanai door without even removing screen. Thanks for your help and quick reply it is much appreciated

The TS 6.2 is the strongest pick in that size class.

For lower back, hips, legs, neck and shoulders, it has the best jet package of the three. And jets are not about count, they are about size and flow. Big high flow jets cost real money and move muscle mass. Small low flow jets feel busy in a wet test, but long term they do not do much.

That TS 6.2 jet package is easily $1,000 better than the Jacuzzi 315 or Bullfrog A5D. It is also US built, privately held, self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and good OEM parts. That is why I like it. 

Here is my jet explainer on that:

[https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=eopYF3KNEkSAgh9y](https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=eopYF3KNEkSAgh9y)

The Jacuzzi 315 is a good looking tub, but the jet package is weak. Those lower jets that look like big therapy jets are what I call deceptajets. Big faces, small low flow guts. Not much real lower back work. Neck and foot jets are also low flow. Pump power is about half the TS 6.2. You are paying for Mexico build costs, tariffs, shipping, equity ownership, and branding.

Bullfrog A5D is the weak link. JetPaks are gimmicky, the loop plumbing is less efficient, and the shell is a cheaper cradle supported ABS system. They are US made, so pricing can be better, but they are much smaller than Master or Jacuzzi, so parts buying power is weaker. Add equity ownership and the value drops.

One other model I would look at is the Instinct Natural. It sits between the Jacuzzi and TS 6.2 for me. Better value than the Jacuzzi, cleaner spec, factory direct, and worth pricing against the TS 6.2.

[https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct](https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct)

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. We can contact the seller through the Private Buyers Service, push for better pricing, and cover you with Buyer Protection. We guarantee to save you more than the $99 cost or refund it.

[https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs](https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs)

What prices do you have in writing on the TS 6.2, J315, and A5D?

Thank you, that's the way I am leaning either Master Spa 6.2 or the smaller Instinct model. I appreciate the info and was exactly what I was thinking.

I haven't got a price on the TS 6.2 yet, when I went there I was looking more at a swim spa but decided against that route. The Bullfrog A7L got a quote at $15k which I didn't even negotiate. They were high based on what. Have seen. Appears avg price on the TS 6.2 is around $11 to $13k. If I'm off base please let me know. Again. Thanks for your help

Haha $15k is a joke on that A5

we can process the TS or any other tub through your local seller at better pricing for sure and cover you under the buyers protection service.

jump on the Private buyers service, If I cant save you more than the $99 fee ill refund it... neither of those things will happen ;-)

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Chris, I decided to go with the Master Spa 67.25. I got a quote from Southeast spas for $12590 plus tax otd of $13389. Is that a good quote

Hi Adrian,

Yes the “COE” error on a Gecko system usually means the topside keypad/control panel has lost communication with the main control board.

Since it happened immediately after a power cut, there are a few common possibilities.

First thing I would try:

Turn off power to the hot tub completely at the breaker

Leave it off for at least 10–15 minutes

Remove the front panel and locate the cable running from the topside keypad to the main control box

Unplug and firmly reconnect that keypad cable on both ends if accessible

Restore power

Power surges and outages can sometimes cause the communication bus to lock up or partially corrupt startup initialization.

If that does not solve it, the next likely causes are:

damaged topside keypad

damaged communication cable

blown low-voltage section on the main board

moisture intrusion into the keypad after the outage

A quick thing to check:

If the display is partially working but buttons do nothing, that often points toward the keypad itself failing.

If the tub is completely dead except for the COE message, the main board may not be communicating properly.

Also inspect:

any signs of water inside the control box

corrosion on connectors

burnt smell or black marks on the PCB

loose ribbon cable connections

One important detail:

Some Gecko systems are very sensitive to grounding and voltage spikes. A power outage or surge can damage either the keypad or the RS485 communication circuit on the board.

Unfortunately there is no software “reset” beyond fully powering down the spa.

Chris

Hot Tub University

Chris thanks very much for your advice will try the things you suggested.cheers

Hi Dave,

I have not done a full standalone review of Royal Spa yet, mainly because they’re a smaller regional builder and we focus most of our reviews on brands with broader market presence and enough production volume to establish long-term consistency.

That said, I am familiar with the product.

In my opinion, Royal Spa falls into the category of a decent shell paired with fairly cost-conscious construction methods. Their insulation system appears to rely heavily on bagged fiber insulation rather than modern full-foam engineering. That approach is cheaper and easier to service, but over time those insulation bags can settle and leave gaps, which reduces thermal efficiency compared to a well-executed full-foam build.

They also use a lot of older-style component design. From what I’ve seen, many of the jet packages lean heavily toward smaller low-flow jets rather than larger premium hydrotherapy jets. The plumbing and jet architecture also appear fairly traditional versus some of the more modern self-supporting and fully engineered systems we see from higher-end manufacturers.

They market their construction heavily, but from a technical standpoint I wouldn’t describe it as especially unique or industry-leading.

The Epsom salt system is another area where I’d advise buyers to look carefully at the details. A lot of the marketing focuses on softer water and reduced chlorine feel, but chemically these systems still rely on sanitizers and oxidizers. Sulfate-based systems can also be harder on components. There are good reasons why the industry does not use Epson salt you can get much easier to manage water with lower chemical loads and easier management, this isn't revolutionary tech its old outdated tech.

One thing to keep in mind with smaller regional manufacturers is economy of scale. Larger manufacturers simply buy components, shells, electronics, pumps, and materials at much lower cost due to production volume. That often translates into either:

* better components at the same price point, or

* similar components at a lower price point.

If you want, send me:

* the specific Royal Spa model you were quoted

* the quoted price

* and any competing tubs you’re considering

…and I can tell you pretty quickly whether it looks competitive for the money.

Chris

Hot Tub University

Thx for your reply! I think I’ll cross Royal Spas off my list as they are pricey in addition to your assessment on their product quality.
That said, what do you recommend for a couple of senior citizens in the Indianapolis that are looking for a hot tub to ease those sore body parts? Plan to use it year round. I’m good with a 4 or 5 seater.

What kind of price point are you looking at? sub $10k or $10-$15k?

<$12K
I have basically looked on line at at various hot tub reviews and found your website- very cool! I learned most from reading/watching your videos! Really like your website and plan to use your buyers assistance.

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for the kind words — that really means a lot to hear.

There’s a ton of noise and marketing hype in the hot tub industry, so our goal has always been to give people honest, experience-based information that actually helps them make a smart decision. I’m really glad the videos and reviews helped you cut through some of the confusion.

And thank you for planning to use our Buyer’s Assistance service — we’re happy to help you narrow things down and make sure you get the best tub for your needs and budget without overpaying.

Since you’re targeting the under-$12K range, there are actually some very solid options available depending on what matters most to you:

* reliability / low maintenance

* insulation & efficiency

* lounger vs non-lounger

* salt system vs traditional water care

* massage performance

* seating capacity

* warranty & dealer quality

Whenever you're ready, send us:

* your approximate location

* how many people will use it most often

* any “must-have” features

* and any brands/models you’re currently considering

…and we’ll point you in the right direction.

Really appreciate you reaching out and supporting what we do.

Chris

Hot Tub University

Avon Indiana; 2 persons primarily; Massage; Master Spas

I can get you good pricing on them or any brand and cover you with my buyers protections service, check out my Private buyers service.

Short list Instinct or Clarity. take a look and wee which models you like, or jump on the private buyers service its $99 we guarantee to save you more than that or refund it ;-) we can jump on a phone call, email or text while we figure it out and get pricing

https://instinctspas.com/

https://www.masterspas.com/clarity/

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Hi Robert,

Yes, that’s a solid price on a Twilight 7.2, especially with delivery, cover, cover lifter, steps, and the startup kit included.

We can do a bit better through our buyer’s service with the same seller, and also get you covered under our buyer’s protection service so you have someone in your corner through the process.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Chris

We paid 14,995 for a Masterspas 8.25 Twilight which was a display at the Washington State Fairgrounds in Puyallup WA during a weekend and we love it and works great. They did remove the light panels that are usually standard for a Twilight.

Hi Joe,

Great question, and thanks for the kind words about Hot Tub University.

On the winter temperature question, it really depends on a bunch of factors: the insulation system, how cold your climate is, whether you’re on time-of-day power rates, and how long you typically go between uses. Sometimes lowering the set point can save money, but if you’re only dropping it for short periods and then reheating often, the savings may be pretty minor, If your on Time of day you save less on the cheap time than you pay to reheat so it can actually be a negative esp with a poorly insulated tub.

For your use case, I would still absolutely want the better insulation. Full foam/open-cell insulation is better no matter what — better for holding heat in the winter and better for keeping the water cooler in the summer.

Under $10k, the one I’d really look at is Instinct Spas. It’s the only tub in that price range that I’d consider truly top build quality. It’s factory direct from the largest and oldest U.S. builder, and because of our traffic we’ve basically stripped out a lot of the usual marketing markup.

That’s where I’d be looking for this kind of use.

Chris

The Twilight 8.25 is one of the better models Master makes. In the Dallas market, a fair delivered price is usually somewhere in the $14k–$15k range depending on options, cover upgrades, steps, delivery complexity, salt system, etc.

If you want, we can usually help set the deal up at better pricing through our dealer network and also cover you with our buyer’s protection service.

You can read about that here:

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

If you have an actual quote already, send it over and I’ll tell you whether it’s a good deal or not.

Chris

Hi Ida,

Pinnacle wouldn’t be where I’d personally spend my money. In my opinion, they’re more of a typical mass-merchant-style build with better marketing than performance.

That said, it really depends on the exact model and the price. What model are you looking at, and what price are they quoting you?

$9500 on a new J285 is not a terrible price, but honestly I’m not a big fan of the Jacuzzi 200 series overall.

I like Jacuzzi as a brand, but really the 300 series and up is where the build gets materially better. The 200 line has too many corners cut for me on shell structure, insulation, and overall engineering.

The jet package is a good example. On the J285 you’ve basically got two of the expensive high flow therapy jets, a handful of mid flows, then a pile of the cheap little low flow jets filling space. On a wet test they can feel spicy for five minutes, but they don’t move real muscle mass long term.

The other thing I really dislike is that foot dome in the middle.

Most manufacturers abandoned those years ago once they got new molds because they create a bunch of problems. They become a tripping point, people constantly step on them getting in and out, and over time that floor area becomes a leak risk. Repairs underneath are a nightmare because you’re often dealing with dense resin reinforced sections.

It also forces plumbing runs underneath the floor where insulation is weakest, so you lose heat there too. Just not a design feature I love anymore.

Now if you step into something like the J345, different conversation entirely.

Much better shell structure, better insulation package, better jet layout, better overall execution. That’s where Jacuzzi starts making more sense. Problem is those are usually landing around the $14k range now.

That’s also where I’d seriously look at Instinct before spending money on a 200 series Jacuzzi.

Instinct is kind of the weird value anomaly in the market right now. It’s built in the US by the largest and one of the oldest hot tub manufacturers in the game. Same real infrastructure, same production capability, same service network. bigger pumps and more expensive jet package.

The reason the pricing is aggressive is we leveraged massive buyer traffic and basically helped strip out a huge chunk of traditional dealer markup and marketing overhead. These tubs were effectively $11k to $12k sitting in retail environments before the factory direct model got reworked.

Right now they’re landing around the mid to high $8k range installed with local service support, cover included, Buyer Protection behind it.

And build wise, it’s materially ahead of the Jacuzzi 200 series in my opinion. Better insulation, better plumbing practices, better shell structure, stronger overall jet package. Honestly much closer to the J345 class than the J285 class. and unlike the jacuzzi it has standard connection so parts are fast and easy to source whereas jacuzzi changed the connection points they both use balboa heating and control system but the Jacuzzi has to be ordered through them with a big price jump for basically the same parts.

The Buyer Protection piece matters more than people realize too. Most buyers are on their own once the deposit clears. If delivery gets delayed, install goes sideways, service communication falls apart, or a dealer starts ghosting, you’re stuck fighting it solo.

With Instinct through our network, you’ve got escalation support behind you. Real people pushing problems through the system, helping coordinate service, helping resolve issues fast. That safety net alone has real value because hot tubs are not Amazon purchases, eventually something always needs attention.

A lot of the time the negotiated pricing savings alone offsets the value of the protection coverage, and it’s already included.

Before spending close to ten grand on a J285, I’d absolutely look at Instinct side by side first.

https://instinctspas.com/products/pure-instinct

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. If you want, send me the exact J285 configuration and I’ll tell you whether I think it’s worth chasing or if there’s a better play nearby.

Did they quote you the J285 with steps, cover, delivery, and electrical included?

Yes quoted with steps, cover, lift,and delivery the guy said it was marked down because of a scratch. I have to get it hard wired because I live in California

Again the price isn't terrible but too high for that build and jet package, the instinct at $8600 blows it out of the water, better shell, insulation, jet package and the same electronic and heating system, it also has a much higher end cover the step and lifter are Maybe $200 we can source them for you.

Saskatchewan changes the conversation fast because real winter performance matters. This is where a lot of marketing falls apart once you get into sustained cold.

Of the three, Arctic is honestly the bottom of this group for me.

Their whole pitch is basically that a little bit of cheap insulation somehow beats a lot of high R value full foam insulation. It’s honestly kind of crazy when you step back and think about it. Regulated industries would laugh at this logic. You can’t build a house in Saskatchewan with R4 walls and claim it’s more efficient than R20 because “air space.” But somehow the hot tub world lets this stuff slide.

Arctic leans heavily on perimeter style insulation, lots of open cavity, and a pile of cheaper components. They also do not clamp plumbing lines, which matters long term in freeze thaw environments and vibration. It’s just not in the same overall build category as Master or Beachcomber.

Now between Beachcomber and Master, both are legitimately good tubs.

Both use much better shell structures than Arctic, both use glued and clamped plumbing, both have materially better insulation systems, and both are built more like premium long term ownership products instead of marketing exercises.

On the Beachcomber side, I would stay away from the Hybrid4 system.

I know they market it hard, but moving pumps outside the primary insulation envelope and pumping hot water through what is basically an under insulated step compartment just doesn’t make much engineering sense. You also lose the ability to reclaim motor heat into the cabinet, which is one of the hidden efficiency advantages of a properly insulated integrated system.

If you like Beachcomber, I’d look at the integrated LEAP setup instead. They’ll sometimes position it like a step down from Hybrid, but honestly I think it’s the better engineering solution. Slightly harder for service access, sure, but not enough to matter in the real world.

The Master Clarity Precision 7 is a really solid value play in this group. Full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, good parts availability, very proven in cold climates. It’s a straightforward no nonsense build.

For your use case and climate, I’d personally have Master and Beachcomber clearly ahead of Arctic.

The real question now is pricing, because value matters. Sometimes Beachcomber pricing gets pretty aggressive in Canada, and sometimes Master absolutely crushes them dollar for dollar.

What prices did you get on the Precision 7, the Yukon or McKinley, and the Beachcomber 590?

Last we looked it was open celled foam not closed cell, you can have a small layer of closed cell on the shell but you cant have it encapsulating the plumbing thats where is get weird. why do you think it has closed cell full foam?

From their online brochure......
What does quality construction mean to us?
Built in the USA using premium domestic and imported materials, these spas are made to last. Every Tropic Seas Spa begins with a pressure-treated wood frame set on a solid ABS base for long-lasting strength and stability. Our Royalwood™ cabinet adds a beautiful, low-maintenance finish, while high-density foam insulation fills the space between the cabinet and shell—maximizing heat retention, minimizing energy use, and strengthening the entire structure....
https://tropicseasspas.com/features/reliable/
Hope this helps..

Hi Chris, Just checking if my reply to your question got thru since I don't see it on the conversation. Maybe after the weekend, LOL,

interesting thanks for the update, Artesian was acquired and we do see things like this happening with equity investment groups :-( tHIS IS A HUGE RED FLAG! I've reached out for confirmation its an absolute nightmare t repair leaks on HD full foamed tubs, I noticed the tub weight is down a bit from heavy grade shells by around 150lbs, if they have shaved some structure from the shell and switched to HD foam to pick up the extra load its not a good thing at all.

Yeah these is talk of an 8' model coming shortly.

Thank you. Planning on getting one very soon so might have to go with Master Spa.

I think that’s probably the smart direction honestly.

Master has the scale, the build quality, the service infrastructure, and they’re still privately held, which matters way more than people realize. Less money burned on marketing nonsense, more money in the actual tub.

The nice part is we can always negotiate private buyer pricing through the same sellers without you walking into the whole showroom CRM funnel. In every case the savings alone are more than the cost of the service and covers our Buyer Protection backing.

That protection piece matters too. If delivery drags, service gets weird, communication falls apart, you’ve got a real escalation path behind you instead of fighting a dealer solo. That’s the safety net people underestimate until they need it.

We help cut through the noise fast, compare builds properly, flag weak engineering, and leverage pricing data across markets. At the end of the day this is real people helping buyers avoid expensive mistakes.

What Master model are you leaning toward right now?

Today we went to an event that Healthy Living was hosting in Yorkville Illinois. We bought a Twilight 8.2.

Nice tub what did you pay?

$15,000 with 15 months 0%.

Yeah there is no such thing as zero interest lol NO ONE gives money for free :-) Dealer pre pays the interest and puts it in the price, but when you do the math its a good retail price for sure and a great tub, Happy hot tubbing!

You’re actually in a pretty good spot because you already know you’ll use it regularly. That’s the biggest mistake people make, buying a tub because they think they’ll use it. You already proved it with the inflatable.

For four adults, especially with tall kids over 6 feet, I’d lean you toward a 7 foot class tub. That’s really the sweet spot in this industry. Better depth, better footwell space, better value per dollar. The tiny 4 seaters sound smart until you sit in them and realize they’re shallow and You knees are up around your ears :-). Molded seating matters a lot once height enters the picture.

New Mexico is actually a pretty easy climate for hot tubs compared to brutal northern winters, but the sun and wind absolutely matter. Full foam insulation still wins because it locks plumbing in place and helps with efficiency, but you also want a good quality cover and UV resistant cabinet. Rodents are more of an issue on cheap with poorly fitting skirts.

Under $10k, there’s honestly one standout play right now, Instinct.

The reason it exists is kind of wild. It’s built by the largest and oldest hot tub manufacturer in the US, same real infrastructure and build quality, but paired with a guy who somehow spent 15 years building relationships with like 80 percent of the hot tub industry. We basically cut out the giant dealer markup, marketing circus, fake sale pricing, all the nonsense.

These were effectively $11k to $12k tubs sitting in retail stores. Factory direct through our combined buyer network they’re landing around $8600 delivered, installed, cover included. Hundreds sold since launch in January and honestly you won’t find much bad chatter because the build is solid. and its backed by my legend level Buyers protection service, its the best way to assure strong service support because if you have issues instead of a one on one battle with a seller you hit me up and I have a chat with the weight of 120,000 hot tub buyers behind me :-)

You’re getting the stuff that actually matters long term, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, full foam insulation, Balboa controls, common service parts, national support. No gimmicks, no giant showroom overhead baked into the price. and its delivered and installed with a premium cover and local service, you cant touch it.

For your use case, daily relaxation plus recovery after hiking, skiing, workouts, service industry aches, that’s exactly the lane these make sense in. its a 2 pump 40 jets tub with a solid jet package rivaling tubs like the Jacuzzi 345 for build and performance at 2/3rds the price, cutting out that marketing, dealer slice makes it untouchable and it can only happen through me and you because otherwise you have to pay a couple million a year to get the traffic that i have organically :-)

https://instinctspas.com/

Do you want more open seating, or do you prefer loungers?

Generation is basically Kevin Sparks trying to run the old Four Winds play again after selling out to equity. Problem is, the market changed. The big manufacturers now buy parts cheaper, build at scale, and can spread warranty and service costs across huge dealer networks. Small regional builders just can’t compete the same way anymore.

The build itself is pretty typical price point stuff. Cradle supported shell, lighter insulation strategy, nothing really special structurally. It’s not in the same class as a true self supported shell, full foam build with clamped plumbing and compression fittings. That stuff costs real money to build properly, and you usually don’t see it from these smaller restart brands trying to hit aggressive pricing.

Honestly, I think the plan was probably to recreate Four Winds, build dealer traction, then cash out again. It just never really got momentum. In today’s market, buyers are a lot more educated, and service infrastructure matters way more than it used to.

The bigger issue is long term support. Even if the tub is “fine” today, you have to ask where the company is in 5 to 10 years. Parts access, warranty handling, dealer coverage, that’s where these smaller regional brands get exposed fast.

That’s why I lean toward established privately held builders with real scale and common OEM parts. Stuff like Master or even Instinct on the value side. Better plumbing practices, better shell structure, full foam, easier long term ownership reality.

What model and price were you quoted on the Generation?

Leigh, you’re already zeroing in on the right stuff.

Catalina, I would personally cross off. Back in the day they were decent, but after the LPI ownership shift they basically turned into a marketing first product. Not where I’d put my money now.

Bullfrog, same thing for me. Pretty good showroom pitch, but the JetPak thing is mostly a gimmick and it rides a thinner cradle supported ABS shell. Long term I’d still take a self supported shell with glued and clamped plumbing every time. Recent QC chatter hasn’t helped either.

Jacuzzi and Master are the two strongest names on your list.

Your old Jacuzzi lasting 8 years with basically one gasket issue tells me you maintained it well, because that’s actually solid real world ownership. They’re still a good tub. But now you’re paying Mexico build costs, tariff costs, heavy marketing overhead, and more proprietary parts. Repair costs long term tend to be higher and the upfront pricing is usually inflated about $1500 to $3000 versus where it probably should be.

The J315 specifically is okay, but look closely at the jet layout. A lot of the jet count is smaller low flow jets. They feel aggressive on a quick wet test but they do not move muscle mass like the bigger therapy jets do. Foot therapy is also pretty light.

Now compare that to the Twilight 7.25.

That tub carries materially more expensive jetting. Bigger high flow therapy jets, much better neck and shoulder therapy, and one of the better deep tissue captain’s seats in that size range. For recovery and your daughter’s dance recovery, that matters way more than brochure jet count.

The 240 is more value oriented. Still built properly, still solid, but less therapy focused.

For Southern California, insulation matters less than cold climates, but build quality still matters a lot because heat and UV exposure destroy cheap covers and weaker plastics over time. Master’s covers are solid instead of the typical vinyl they use Sunbrella, its an expensive tough outer cover that's UV stable, its what they use on million dollar yachts, it has good hinge seals and locking straps. In your wind conditions I’d absolutely add upgraded tie downs and keep the cover treated a few times a year so it doesn’t dry crack. these are the gold standard in locking clips and they click right onto the master cover... https://hottubuniversity.myshopify.com/products/spa-buckle-premium-hot-tub-cover-buckle-system-set-of-4

Your target budget under 10k is the hard part.

Realistically:

J315 in store is probably going to overshoot that.

Twilight 7.25 usually lands more like low to mid teens retail.

Bullfrog AD5 often prices stupidly high for what it is.

The sneaky good value lane for you is probably either:

Master Clarity line,

or Instinct if you want to stay tighter on budget.

Instinct is factory direct from the same major US manufacturing ecosystem, self supported shell, full foam, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, delivered and installed included. That’s the one that keeps blowing up because it stripped out dealer markup and marketing theater. Usually around that 8k to 9k zone instead of 11k plus retail.

If therapy is the absolute priority though, Twilight still wins because those larger high flow jets cost real money and you can feel it.

Also, skip most salt systems unless it’s Master’s low salt setup. Most salt systems are dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry, more corrosion. Master’s is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds about 1 ppm steady. That’s why it works.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me the written quotes after Saturday and I’ll route you through the same sellers, get the numbers where they should be, and cover you with Buyer Protection. If anyone drags their feet, you text me directly and I sort it.

Big question, do you want best value under 10k, or are you willing to stretch if the Twilight therapy difference feels noticeably better Saturday?

22 years out of a Marquis Euphoria is a solid run.

You’re basically deciding between really good value, or going heavier into therapy.

Instinct is the easier value play. Think upper middle luxury, around that Jacuzzi J345 level, but without all the dealer markup and marketing fluff. Good mix of large high flow therapy jets and standard jets, strong neck and shoulder seat, full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, Balboa systems, all the stuff that actually matters long term. That tub lives in the $11k to $12k retail world normally, but because we drive insane organic traffic through HTU instead of spending millions on traditional advertising, it lands closer to the mid to high 8s delivered and installed.

That’s the whole magic trick. Same quality level, less overhead.

Now if your wife’s back issues are a serious priority, Twilight is a different animal. Same build quality, same insulation, same salt capability, same service network, but the jet package is nuts. It runs a much more expensive large high flow therapy system. Bigger jets, more flow, more actual muscle movement. It’s one of the strongest therapy tubs on the market right now without getting into silly luxury pricing. You’ll usually land somewhere in the low to mid 13s depending on model and setup.

For your space, I’d probably steer you toward:

Instinct Pure or Balance if you want best value and very solid therapy.

Master Twilight 7.2 or 7.25 if the back therapy is the priority and you want the bigger jump in massage performance.

And yes, Oregon absolutely matters. Cool damp climate means full foam insulation and a self supported shell matter more long term. Both Instinct and Master check those boxes properly.

On salt, most systems are dumb timer chlorine with higher salt and yo yo chemistry. Master’s system is on demand, lower salt, holds about 1 ppm steady. It’s the best salt setup in the industry right now. Instinct is salt ready, module drops in once released.

Once you jump into the Buyer Service, we’ll narrow the exact model together over text or phone before you pull the trigger. We keep your name out of dealer CRMs, get you better numbers through the same sellers, and back it with Buyer Protection if anything gets weird.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thanks for the great info! Will be in touch soon.

Hey Brian,

At $6800 the Jubilee LS is not a scam, but you need to understand what you are buying.

Nordic is basically an entry level rotomold tub. The shell itself is cheaper to build, usually at least about $1500 less expensive than a true self supported acrylic shell. That savings has to come from somewhere.

The shell is thinner and flexier, which is why they still use the older two part jet housings instead of the newer compression fit systems. Compression fittings are more reliable long term, but the shell has to be rigid enough to support them properly.

Insulation is another weak spot. Even the upgraded Nordic insulation package is still pretty mid tier compared to a true full foam build. In a mild climate that matters less, but it still affects efficiency, structural support, and long term durability.

The jet package is mostly brochure fluff too. Small 2 and 3 hp pumps feeding a pile of little low flow jets. You usually end up with maybe a couple decent therapy jets and a bunch of tiny ones that feel spicy for five minutes but do not really move muscle mass. No real neck and shoulder therapy setup either.

Now compare that to something like the Instinct line.

For not dramatically more money, you move into:

Self supported acrylic shell

Full foam insulation

Compression jet fittings

Glued and clamped plumbing

Twin 4 hp pumps

Much stronger therapy jet package

Better cover

Delivered and installed

Salt ready for the upcoming module.

Was $12k in stores, now factory direct for my customers only delivered and installed for $8500 or the single pump version for 7500 if you can stretch the budget a bit its a much better buy

That is a completely different level of build.

So if the Nordic was dirt cheap, like throwaway cabin tub cheap, fine. But at nearly 7k, personally I think the value starts falling apart because you are getting very close to real acrylic spa territory.

I would much rather own an Instinct long term. No contest.

if the budget needs to stay down then lets look for a good newer model used tub, I can look at the area for you if you give me a town or zip

What climate are you in, and is this more for soaking or actual therapy?

I live near Green Bay WI. It will probably be more for soaking, but I could use some therapy as well. I have never owned a tub, so not sure what to expect. I would like to stay under 10k. Thanks for advice

“Here’s the Instinct story in plain English.

Instinct is built by the largest and oldest spa manufacturer in the US. Same core factory capability, same real build standards, same national service footprint. Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam, Balboa systems, real parts. Not stripped junk. Not Alibaba private label nonsense.

The reason the price shocks people is simple. We ripped out the dealer circus and most of the marketing overhead.

That exact level of build was sitting in retail stores around eleven grand plus delivery, plus cover, plus steps, plus whatever fake sale they were running that weekend. Instinct lands closer to the low eights delivered, installed, cover included, because the distribution model changed.

People hear that and think there’s a catch. There isn’t. The catch is usually the other way around. Most of this industry is bloated with marketing spend, giant dealer margins, rep commissions, trade show budgets, influencer nonsense, and endless showroom overhead.

The dirty little secret is this, if we had to buy traffic the normal way, this model wouldn’t exist.

To get this kind of volume through traditional spa marketing would cost millions. Literally millions just to get enough eyeballs. Radio, TV, paid search, dealer co-op ads, home shows, finance promos, Google clicks, all of it. The CAC in this industry is brutal.

The only reason Instinct works is because HTU built massive organic traffic. Hundreds of thousands of buyers watch the videos before they ever shop. They already know the build factors. They already know the gimmicks. So customer acquisition cost collapses.

That’s the whole game.

Instead of spending millions convincing people to walk into a showroom, we spend our time educating buyers. Then we route them to the same factories and service networks without all the extra mouths in the middle taking a cut.

That’s how a tub that used to effectively retail around eleven can land around eight three with delivery and install included.

And because it’s still backed by a real national manufacturer with real service infrastructure, you’re not gambling on some fly by night internet brand.

That’s the part most people miss.

Cheap tubs are cheap because the build is cheap.

Instinct is cheaper because the business model is lean. You need to spend $11-12k in store to get this level...

Big difference.you buy it right off the factory website, no options or extras always the same tub same color delivered and installed with a premium cover.

https://instinctspas.com/

Hi robert we just launched a site upgrade sorry our bad bill will reach out today

Hi Brandon,

The LSX 30 is a great tub, but I would not overbuy the massage pump story.

I have not personally been in that Special Edition yet, but in general this is a minor feature, not a deal maker. You already had strong flow control with diverter valves. If massage is the goal, most people run the therapy seats in high flow mode anyway.

Also, 3 pumps sounds better in a brochure, but it is not automatically better.

A strong 2 pump system with twin diverters can be better because two bigger pumps are usually more efficient than three smaller ones. With twin diverters, you can push a huge amount of water to the main therapy seat when you want it. The 3 pump pitch is usually “more pumps is better” and “dedicated pump for the main seat,” but that dedicated pump is often smaller.

So I’d judge this on price gap.

The LSX 700 is already a beast. Great shell, full foam insulation, good parts, good repairability, US built, privately held company. Master is one of the oldest builders in the world and the only one of the top 3 still privately held, which usually means better value and less corporate marketing tax.

If the LSX 30 upgrade is a small bump, fine. If it is thousands more, I’d be cautious unless you love that exact seat and layout.

What price were you quoted on the LSX 30 and the LSX 700?

I was quoted $16,995.00 for the LSX 700. Includes delivery, cover, steps, & start up chemicals. The LSX 30 was quoted at &18,995 with the same "extras".
As far as 3 pumps vs 2 I think both spas have 3 pumps already, the LSX 30 just replaces one pump with a variable speed pump for the massage feature. I can not find the sizes of the pumps, but I believe I was told on the LSX 700 that all 3 were 5 hp? Is this correct? Also from what I can tell the LSX 30 it is a bigger spa and the variable speed pump also works as a circulation pump for the QuietFlo water care system. Is this a true benefit?

I can process those deals with the same seller for you at better prices and cover you with buyers protection.

LSX 700 has a 6 a 4 and a 3hp pump, and always the large pump runs a low speed for the filtration unless you opt for the circ pump which i don't recommend.

What is it you want out of this tub? is massage therapy the goal? if so what part of your body needs it?

Get the private buyers service, it will be the best $99 you spend on this gig, we can jump on phone text or email go through things fast get your price better and when we put you back to the seller it will be with a done deal all the options and extras and we will save you money for sure esp on the extras and upgrades.

and we cover you after the sale, if you ever had a conflict with the seller you don't need to fight one on one you call me i deal with him for you shit gets fixed fast no one wants on the bad side of my volume of traffic :-)

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Hi Brandon,

The LSX 30 is a great tub, but I would not overbuy the massage pump story.

I have not personally been in that Special Edition yet, but in general this is a minor feature, not a deal maker. You already had strong flow control with diverter valves. If massage is the goal, most people run the therapy seats in high flow mode anyway.

Also, 3 pumps sounds better in a brochure, but it is not automatically better.

A strong 2 pump system with twin diverters can be better because two bigger pumps are usually more efficient than three smaller ones. With twin diverters, you can push a huge amount of water to the main therapy seat when you want it. The 3 pump pitch is usually “more pumps is better” and “dedicated pump for the main seat,” but that dedicated pump is often smaller.

So I’d judge this on price gap.

The LSX 700 is already a beast. Great shell, full foam insulation, good parts, good repairability, US built, privately held company. Master is one of the oldest builders in the world and the only one of the top 3 still privately held, which usually means better value and less corporate marketing tax.

If the LSX 30 upgrade is a small bump, fine. If it is thousands more, I’d be cautious unless you love that exact seat and layout.

What price were you quoted on the LSX 30 and the LSX 700?

Hi Cora and William,

Good shortlist. Both are Master Spas, so on build quality, insulation, reliability, and repairability, you are already in the right lane. You can’t really touch Master in swim spas right now.

They are built like tanks. Master basically invented this category, and they are the biggest swim spa builder in the world.

The Trainer 12 is the smaller, lower cost choice. Easier footprint, less water, easier install, and plenty good if this is more for light exercise, soaking, and compact backyard use.

The Challenger 15D is a different animal. I’ve been in both, and I owned a 15D for a couple of years. The extra depth was a game changer. If you have kids hacking around, people using it socially, or you want a more serious swim lane, the depth and size make a big difference.

But there is a real price jump.

Rough ranges can move by region and package, but generally the Trainer 12 should land well below the Challenger 15D. The 15D costs more because it is bigger, deeper, and more capable.

Before I steer you too hard, I need the numbers. Do you have pricing yet, and what budget are you trying to stay under?

American Whirlpool is not junk, but I’d firmly call it mid tier, not premium.

The 481 has a decent layout if you want a lounger and a smaller footprint, but the build has some compromises that matter long term.

Biggest issue is the plumbing. AW does not use clamped plumbing, and that’s one of the first things I look for. Clamped lines and compression fittings matter because leaks happen at stress points over time. AW takes the cheaper route there.

The shell depends on the series. Their 400 series and up are better than the lower lines, so the 481 is not the worst offender. But overall they still lean more toward a cradle supported, lighter shell philosophy versus the heavier self supported builds I prefer from Master, Instinct, Jacuzzi, or Sundance.

Insulation is another weak spot. AW leans perimeter insulation instead of true full foam. In Southern California that matters less than Minnesota, but with SDG&E rates where you are, efficiency still matters. Full foam tubs simply hold heat better and support plumbing better over the years.

They also market the steel frame hard. I’m not a believer there. Steel frames are mostly a manufacturing and marketing angle, not a performance advantage. Good wood frames already last a very long time, stay quieter, and don’t have the same corrosion concerns near coastal air.

The jetting is strictly middle of the road too. AW tends to use a lot of smaller jets, including those neck and shoulder clusters that look impressive in the showroom but simply do not move enough water for a deep therapy massage. They feel “busy” more than powerful. Real therapy comes from larger high flow jets moving actual muscle mass, and that costs real money to build.

So my take is this:

If the 481 is aggressively priced, fine, reasonable buy.

If it’s getting close to premium money, I’d rather put you into an Instinct, Master Clarity, or Artesian Island, jacuzzi 300 or even a bullfrog. maybe even a twilight or elite would be better depending on how important therapy is.

The written quote matters here. Delivery, cover, steps, warranty labor, electrical credit, all of it changes the real value.

What price did they quote you on the 481?

John, the Bullfrog X7 can be a good buy if the price is right.

It is not quite top tier. The downside with Bullfrog is the thinner cradle supported shell, so I do not put it in the same class as the best self supported shell spas.

That said, the X Series is the safer Bullfrog line because it avoids the JetPak system. Everything else on the X7 is pretty solid, and for an older beginner who wants something simple, comfortable, and not crazy complicated, it can work.

The whole answer comes down to the number.

What price are you seeing on the X7?

$10,500

John, at $10,500 the X7 is a decent buy, but not a great one.

That is pretty much going rate. I would want that closer to $9,500 to $10,000 before I got excited.

The X7 is the Bullfrog I dislike the least, because it avoids the JetPak system. That is the safer version of Bullfrog. Simple seats, simpler plumbing, less gimmick.

The weak point is still the shell. Bullfrog uses a cradle supported ABS shell, and I do not put that in the same class as a self supported acrylic shell. That is the big long term difference.

So short answer, yes, the X7 can work. It is simple enough, comfortable enough, and not a disaster. But it would be my third choice in that price range, not my first.

Under $11k, nothing is touching Instinct right now.

That tub was selling around $11k through normal retail. We stripped out the dealer theater, branding cost, showroom markup, and marketing nonsense because 80 percent of hot tub buyers already come through us before they buy. So our clients get it factory direct, around $8.3k, delivered, installed, cover included, with national service.

And we back it with Buyer Protection. If something goes sideways, you are not one guy arguing with a dealer. You come to me, and I deal with them with the weight of thousands of buyers behind me. That usually gets you a much higher service level.

So I would not call the X7 bad. I would just call it okay at $10,500. Instinct is the better value under $11k.

Who are the installers near Madison WI

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wKrqcRstSfwFeEzY7

these guy we have used them a lot 4.7 rating on google maps, reliable and easy but again it doesn't really matter when they tag you as my customer they pay extra attention :-)

Jack, the LSX 900 is a serious therapy tub, and with your size and mobility issues, I think you are looking at the right class of spa.

On the cover lifter, do not get too hung up on what Master lists on their site.

Hot tub manufacturers build hot tubs. Covers, lifters, steps, handrails, and accessories are almost always added by the seller or dealer down the road. So you are not locked into the factory lifter just because you are buying a Master.

You can put almost any compatible cover lifter on that spa.

If the dealer does not carry the lifter you want, we can help source it. The key is making sure it fits the 8 by 9 footprint, clears the cabinet, works with your cover size, and gives you the view and access you need.

And yes, your concern is valid. Spending big money on a spa and then having a giant cover hanging over your head or blocking the view is dumb. Especially if you are already dealing with claustrophobia and mobility issues.

The seller needs to solve that before delivery, not after.

Get on my private buyer service before you lock the deal. We do not sell tubs. We put the sale through the same seller you are already dealing with, but we usually tighten the pricing and cover you with Buyer Protection.

That means if service ever gets sideways, you are not fighting one on one. You rope us into the conversation, and now there is a lot more pressure on the seller to do what they are supposed to do.

Send me the quote and the cover lifter option they are proposing, and I’ll tell you if it makes sense.

Mike, we know the guys in Rocklin, we deal with them pretty regularly.

Yes, that TS 67.25 hits the main build points. Master is the last of the big three manufacturers that is still privately held, and that is a big reason the pricing is usually better. Less corporate nonsense, less equity money baked into the sticker.

On salt, no, I would not panic.

That tub is salt ready. Some dealers do not like salt because they still think of the old systems, and honestly, we were not big fans of those either. Most salt systems were dumb timer systems, higher salt, more corrosion, and yo yo water chemistry. A good enzyme program or something like AquaFinesse could often give you steadier water.

Master’s new system is different.

It is about 30 percent lower salt than the other systems, and it is a smart system. It tests demand and only makes sanitizer when the water needs it. That is a major difference.

We beta tested it for over a year. I think we tweaked pH about four times the entire year, and that was basically it. It held right around 1 ppm sanitizer, which is stellar.

The only wrinkle is the module is backordered until late summer, but the TS 67.25 is ready for it. When it comes back online, it is basically a drop in.

Your dealer calling it non salt is probably just them not pushing it until the module is available, or they are not fully up to speed on the newer system.

Get on my private buyer service before you lock it down. We can probably tighten the price a bit, and you will be covered by Buyer Protection. If you ever have service issues from the seller, you have us to lean on, and we can apply pressure if it is needed.

What did they quote you in writing on the TS 67.25?

Thank you SO much Chris! They quoted me 13,900 (with cover and step). Just wondering if it is too large for us. Just in case, if we decide on a two seater (lounge perhaps), any recommendations? I will join the PBS Thanks again.

Loungers are funny, 1st time buyers get them because were using dry land criteria second time buyers don't because too many people floated out of them, and they take up a ton of space and ioffer little in return. probably less than 85 percent were happy long term. Bench seating is still the safer pick if you want maximum flexibility for guests and family.

On the private buyer service, the value here is not just the savings, although we should definitely be able to save you more than the cost of the program. The bigger piece is Buyer Protection. If anything gets sideways after the sale, you are not fighting one on one with the seller, you pull us in and we put pressure on it.

Charles, yeah, we can definitely help in Canada.

We are Canadian, so Toronto is not some weird outside market for us. The $99 buyer program runs in Canada too. It is in U.S. dollars because most of our traffic is U.S., so call it roughly $140 Canadian. I will save you more than that on the purchase or I will refund it.

The bigger piece is Buyer Protection.

If you have a service problem later, you are not fighting one on one with a dealer who already has your money. You hit me, I get involved, and now it is one customer backed by thousands and thousands of buyers. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of our traffic. That pressure matters.

On Maple, they are pretty decent for a Canadian made brand.

The M420 at CAD $11,200 plus tax with cover, lifter, steps, chemicals, delivery and setup is not crazy, but I would not call it a slam dunk without seeing the full build spec. Maple used to build a really strong tub. It has been diluted a bit over the last while.

The shell is a little lighter than I like. The insulation is a bit of a downgrade compared to the better full foam builds. I am also not sure if they are clamping the plumbing lines now, and that matters. Shell, insulation, and plumbing are not showroom features. They are the stuff that costs money and keeps the tub alive in a Toronto winter. 

The Canadian built angle is not as clean as people think either.

Almost all the real parts in a hot tub come from the U.S. anyway, pumps, controls, heaters, jets, plumbing parts, electronics. So even on a Canadian assembled spa, a lot of that cost has already taken the currency, freight, and tariff hit before it ever lands in the finished tub.

The big U.S. factories also have a scale advantage. They buy parts in massive volume, way beyond what the smaller Canadian builders can do. So a U.S. built tub does not always end up more expensive. A lot of the time it lands at the same money or better, with heavier build quality.

That is why I still like Master in Canada.

It is one of the last big privately held builders left in the industry, and that matters. Equity investors have chewed up a ton of this market. When they get involved, prices go up, marketing gets louder, and the tub does not necessarily get better.

Master is full foam, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, Balboa style OEM controls, and national service structure. That is the stuff I care about.

The Maple M420 could be okay if the quote is sharp and the dealer is strong, but I would want to compare it directly against the closest Master before I called it the right buy.

Do you want me to compare the Maple M420 against the closest Master model for Toronto pricing?

That’d be great, Chris, yes please — I think a good starting point for comparators might be the Twilight TS 7.25 or, perhaps closer to budget, the Clarity Precision 7? . . . But I’m going now to sign up for your private buyer’s club — your broker approach with post-sale protection is a no-brainer — so I’m happy to pick it up there. Thanks!

Stu, yeah, the Bueno Chicago getting cancelled might have been a blessing.

Those Wayfair Bueno units are problematic. Build quality is not in the same class, support can be a bear, and if you have issues later you are dealing with a mass merchant pipeline instead of a real spa service structure. That is where cheap gets expensive.

Instinct is a totally different animal.

It is built like a tank, and your 50 amp setup is actually a plus. The Pure Instinct can run on the 40 amp requirement, but with your 50 amp 6 AWG 4 wire to the sub panel, the spa can be set into high amp mode. That lets the heater stay on while the pumps are running, instead of dropping heat during jet use.

Still have the electrician land it correctly with the proper GFCI setup, but you did not overbuild it in a bad way. You are in better shape than most.

Yes, ozone is included.

On price, no, we cannot really reduce it further. The only reason it is priced where it is now is because we used our traffic and buying power to push the biggest U.S. manufacturer to take this tub out of normal retail and offer it direct. In the retail channel, this build would be around that $11k to $12k range delivered and installed.

That is why the Pure Instinct number is already hard to touch. Delivered, installed, cover included, national service, no options theater.

And yes, it is already covered by our Buyer Protection. That means if service gets sideways later, you are not fighting one on one with some seller. You hit us, we get involved, and we apply pressure from the volume side. That is one of the best ways to get better service response in this industry. 

Shipping can be in that 8 to 10 week window depending on what is already moving through the system. Sometimes it is faster if there is inventory or a truck already routed near you. Sometimes it is a little slower if you just missed a production or delivery cycle.

Bottom line, compared to the Bueno Chicago, I would take the cancellation as good luck. The Instinct is a much safer buy.

Also you cant make any mistakes because there are no options... every tub is same color same specs, delivered, installed with premium cover :-)

Thank you so much Chris for the detailed response. This provides the peace of mind I was looking for. I'm so happy I stumbled upon your website.

Dave, cold climate matters, but I would not assume Canadian made automatically means better value.

There is not a huge value gap between U.S. built tubs and Canadian built tubs right now, because the whole industry is tied into the same parts stream. Almost every major component in a hot tub comes from the U.S. anyway, pumps, controls, heaters, jets, manifolds, electronics, all that stuff.

So even if the shell and cabinet are built in Canada, the cost structure is still affected by U.S. parts, freight, currency, tariffs, and distribution. Period.

On Coast, I need to be blunt.

Before Covid, Coast was doing pretty well. They were close to being in our recommended group. Then during Covid they absolutely imploded. Management shakeups, quality control problems, supply problems, and a lot of the dealer base walked away.

They have redone the company since then, but it is a shadow of what it used to be.

The big issues for me are the cheaper cradle supported shells and the fact that they stopped clamping the plumbing lines. Those are not small details. Shell structure and plumbing are two of the biggest long term cost areas in a spa. When a brand starts saving money there, I get nervous.

So no, I would not have Coast in my top 10 right now.

An honest local dealer matters, and I am glad you have one nearby. But a good dealer cannot turn a weaker build into a better tub. They can service it better, but they cannot change the shell, the plumbing, the insulation, or the component strategy after the fact. That is why I would still judge the exact model against the real build factors, shell, plumbing, insulation, controls, parts, ownership, and service support.

There are some good Canadian built tubs. Beachcomber is probably the old standard from a quality standpoint, but I would only be looking at their upper ranges. The build can be solid, but the performance is not usually great. They are not big muscle moving therapy tubs.

In your climate, I would be looking for full foam insulation, a self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, common OEM controls and parts, and a real service path. That matters more than the flag on the brochure.

What budget are you trying to stay inside, and are you looking for therapy or just soaking?

Thanks for the response! Massage jets are nice but not a deal breaker and we don't need a ton of them. What we are looking for is something that is well built and can stand up to our cold winters. Our budget is around $15K. Jacuzzi has a strong presence in our province maybe them or Beachcomer?

Dave, if you are around $15k and you want solid build over big jet counts, Jacuzzi is definitely a better lane than Coast right now.

Jacuzzi has good build quality, good parts, good backup, and usually a strong service network. If they have a strong presence in your province, that matters. At least with Jacuzzi you are getting into something well built and reliable that should last.

The two downsides are price and supply mess.

Jacuzzi is equity investor owned now, and they are built in Mexico. So in Canada you are dealing with freight, currency, tariffs, and distribution layers. Equity ownership usually adds money too, often $1,000 to $2,000 Canadian baked into the price. Not because the tub got better, just because there are more mouths to feed.

The other thing with Jacuzzi is parts. The core gear is good, but they do use a lot of brand specific and proprietary connections on purpose. That means you are not always buying the normal off the shelf version of a part. You are buying the Jacuzzi version, and that usually costs more.

In that same price range, I would also be looking at Master Spas Clarity. It is very comparable build quality wise, and honestly Master and Jacuzzi are pretty close on the real construction side. Same general level of shell, insulation, plumbing, controls, and reliability.

The difference is Master is U.S. built and still privately held, so they tend to land $1,000 to $1,500 cheaper for a comparable tub. Less equity money, less marketing bloat, less nonsense in the price.

Beachcomber is still a decent Canadian option, especially in the upper ranges. They are more of a solid soaker than a high performance therapy tub. If massage is not the priority, they can make sense, but I would still want the exact model and quote before calling it a good buy.

With your budget, you should be able to get into a well built spa under $15k, maybe even closer to $13.5k if the quote is tight. If you want the higher end therapy stuff, more big massage jets, neck jets, foot jet systems, and the heavier performance packages, that is where you usually creep into the $17k to $18k range.

This is where my private buyer service makes sense. We do not sell the tub. We negotiate with the seller ahead of time. When we make that call, they know who we are, we know their cost structure, and there is a lot less jerking around. We get the bottom line faster.

And the bigger piece is Buyer Protection. If service gets sideways later, you are not fighting one on one with a dealer. You rope us in, and now there is real pressure behind your request.

What exact Jacuzzi and Beachcomber models are you being quoted?

Jacuzzi has quoted $13,990 before taxes for J-245.

That includes delivery, a winter cover, steps and a starter water care system

OK I should have clarified, the Jacuzzi j-200 series is not ok, you need to get into the 300 series, way too many cut corners on the 200's with the shell, insulation etc.

how long ago did you join the PBS? also did you check you spam filter?

i just hit My team up they will engage with you today for sure.

sorry not sure what went sideways here :-)

Yes, Spam checked, nothing in there. I joined the PBS back in 2020 when I purchased my first tub with you (Clarity Balance 7).

We've changed our system since then. I'll send you an email

Bill,

Hydropool would not be in the same recommended group for me.

Hydropool sits under the big Jacuzzi group umbrella, along with Jacuzzi, Sundance, Sunrise, and the other related lines. But Hydropool is not the top line in that family. It is lower down the stack.

If you want to compare fairly against a Master Twilight 8.2, you really need to move up into Jacuzzi or Sundance territory.

That is where we are at least talking apples to apples.

Master Twilight gives you the better core build story, hand rolled self supported shell, full foam insulation, good frame, common parts, strong plumbing, and a serious therapy jet package.

Hydropool is more of a thinner acrylic supported shell, lighter insulation system, and more marketing around features than real long term build strength. I would not put it in the same class as Twilight.

The 799 layout is also weird.

Those two side by side loungers make the whole tub awkward. You end up with a big shell that behaves like a tiny three seater with two giant loungers eating all the space.

First time buyers love loungers because we all think like dry land people. On dry land, stretching out sounds great.

In hot water, you float.

Loungers take up a ton of room, and if the fit is off, you fight buoyancy the whole time. Second time buyers almost never buy loungers, and I would be really careful buying two loungers in one tub.

Jetting is not close either.

The Twilight 8.2 has a much more expensive jet package. Better neck and shoulder therapy, better foot and leg jets, and a lot more large high flow therapy jets.

That is what moves muscle mass.

Hydropool uses more of the smaller low flow jets. They can feel busy in a wet test, but they are not the same long term therapy experience.

So no, I would not call the 799 and Twilight 8.2 comparable tubs, and they should not be priced anywhere near each other.

What numbers did you get on both tubs?

No pricing yet. Just researching right now. Did you offer a service to find and negotiate on a hot tub purchase?

Looking to install in the minden, Ontario area

Yeah our private buyers serv9ce is legend series :) its $99 usd (around $140 cdn) we will save you more than that guaranteed or refund it. It also includes buyers Protection Service, which means if you have issues with the seller you can hit me up and ill call them for you.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Larry,

Calling Platinum Spas a “brand” is a stretch.

This is mostly a rebrand play. They are not a real manufacturer in the way Master, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Artesian, or Hot Spring are. They buy tubs, mostly out of China, put their label on them, redo the certifications, dress up the marketing, and present it like a manufacturer story.

There are loads of these guys now.

And no, the Stargate does not check all the boxes.

It is a cradle supported shell, not a self supported hand rolled shell.

The insulation system is light compared to a proper full foam build.

I am not seeing the plumbing story I want to see either, glued and clamped lines, compression fittings at the shell, and real details on jet body construction. When a brand is quiet on plumbing, that usually tells you plenty.

So what you are really doing here is buying from someone who is buying from someone who is buying a tub out of China.

That is not where I would put real money.

If it was crazy cheap, fine, maybe we talk. But if this is priced anywhere near a real North American built spa, hard pass.

What price did they quote you on the Stargate?

Did not get into pricing but we are sold on Master twilight. Will follow up when ready to buy. We currently have a tub that is still working but looking forward to the upgrade

When it comes time to buy keep your name out of the databases, hit me up ill get you better pricing through the same sellers.

Brady,

You’re down to two of the top brands.

Jacuzzi and Master are both strong. You’re not going way wrong with either one. Jacuzzi is top tier. Master is still my number one because the boring stuff is better, private ownership, US built, full foam, self supported shell, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and less proprietary content. That stuff matters ten years from now.

Jacuzzi is a good tub, but the Mexico build, tariff hit, corporate marketing machine, and proprietary parts are part of why it costs more. You’re paying a couple grand for things that do not always make the tub better.

My honest take on the IR and nanobubble pitch is this, I would not put real money into either one.

The IR thing is mostly showroom sizzle. Red light can have some use in the right application, but you’re sitting in a hot tub already. You might get a tiny bit more heat effect on one little circle of your back where the light is hitting you, but as a real hydrotherapy feature, no, I don’t buy it. The water and the jetting are doing the therapy. Not a few little lights.

The nanobubble thing is the same deal. The reason you’re not finding hard independent data is because there isn’t much to hang your hat on. It breaks bubbles down smaller, so yes, you get more surface contact area. That part is real. But the marketing jumps from that to “better sanitation” and that is where it gets squishy.

Also, those nanobubbles are not magic ozone bubbles. The spec language says the ozone system works alongside the nanobubble system. That matters. The nanobubbles are basically air. If Jacuzzi had a real oxygen generator or an oxygen tank feeding that system, it would be screamed all over the brochure. They use the word oxygen because there is oxygen in air.

On ozone, I would not lead with the “illegal in Europe” argument unless someone has that in writing. That sounds weak. The stronger point is simple, hot tub ozone systems are tiny add ons. Real ozone sanitation systems cost thousands and have dryers, contact tanks, absorption systems, and off gas destruct units. Hot tubs do not have that. These little spa ozone units can help a bit, but they are not some commercial grade water treatment plant hiding under the skirt.

So when Jacuzzi says 0.5 ppm chlorine, I’m not saying it can’t work under the right conditions. I’m saying I would not pay thousands extra because a marketing department says it will magically cut your chemical life in half. Heavy daily use is still heavy daily use. Bather waste still has to go somewhere. And owner reports are saying they are not getting anywhere near 0.5ppm

Master’s new salt system is the real water care story right now.

I was anti salt for years. Most salt systems are dumb timer chlorine. Higher salt, yo yo chemistry, more corrosion risk. They just make chlorine on a schedule. Use the tub a lot and the sanitizer falls behind. Do not use the tub and the sanitizer climbs.

Master’s new system is different. It is on demand. It tests and doses based on need. It runs about 30 percent lower salt than other systems, and in our beta testing it held below 1 ppm with almost daily use. We only adjusted water chemistry four times in a year, and those were minor pH tweaks.

That is not the same animal as the old salt systems.

And no, you are not going to taste salt. You are not soaking in ocean water. The Master system is around 800 ppm salt. Your tears are around 9,000 ppm. Ocean water is around 35,000 ppm. So the idea that this feels like swimming in the ocean is just wrong. It should not taste salty, and it should not sting your eyes because of salt. Eye sting is usually bad pH, bad alkalinity, or combined sanitizer, not the low salt level itself.

FROG ease is simple. It is a mineral and chlorine dispensing system. It can work fine. But it is still a cartridge feeding sanitizer into the water. Master has a mineral system standard too, and if you want to run even lower chemical load, the best path right now is Master’s on demand salt, or a good enzyme add in, or mineral support. That is where the real low chemical ownership experience is.

On the 2025 Jacuzzi high back at $18,500, yes, I would be cautious.

The cover is one issue. It is custom, it is going to cost more, and long term availability could get annoying if they discontinue that high back design. But the bigger issue is that the high back covers never sealed as cleanly, they are harder to handle, and you are limited on cover lifter options because one side is higher. There is a reason most brands walked away from that design.

Jet wise, this is where Twilight really punches.

The Twilight series has a more expensive therapy jet package. More big high flow jets. A real neck and shoulder seat. Big monster jets for feet and legs. And you can divert serious pump power to them. That is what moves muscle mass. Little spicy jets feel good in a wet test, but long term therapy comes from flow, plumbing, and big expensive jets.

So my read is simple.

If you love the Jacuzzi, buy it and do not lose sleep. It is a good spa. But I would not pay thousands more for IR lights and a nanobubble pitch. I would pay more for better shell, better plumbing, better jetting, better parts access, better insulation, and a water care system that has actually impressed us in real use.

That points me back to Master, especially if daily therapy is the goal.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me the quotes and exact model numbers, and I’ll route you through the same sellers, push the numbers down, and cover you with HTU Buyer Protection.

What exact Twilight model and Jacuzzi model are you comparing?

That’s very interesting that you are saying customers with Jacuzzi’s True Water system are not actually able to run their systems all the way down at 0.5ppm Chlorine. If they are using the Chlorine canister with the tub, are they needing to manually add more than their dealers are telling them? I wish there was more people out there talking about this.

Are you saying that in your test of Master Spa’s new salt system you held your Chlorine to less than 1ppm?

I’m definitely interested in low chemical ownership no matter which brand I go with. Can a good enzyme add in replace Cl/Br as a sanitizer? Are there any downsides to using enzymes? Are there any downsides to the mineral cartridges? I believe both Jacuzzi and Master Spas recommend running a mineral cartridge. I think the master spa cartridge uses copper and zinc while the Jacuzzi one uses silver. Are there different pros/cons in the two?

One of the reps at the Jacuzzi place told me that salt systems don’t work well with our city water here in Lincoln, NE. Looking at some city water report info from last year, it looks like our total hardness was around 192ppm, alkalinity was 164pp, and Calcium was 53ppm. Would any of that (or anything else) matter for efficacy of running a salt system tub?

One of our biggest issues is that we did wet tests at both places and weren’t super impressed at the Master Spa’s store. They only had one tub filled for testing (Twilight 8.25)—the non lounge version. My wife wants a lounge seat and really liked the lounge seat in the 2025 Jacuzzi 400 series that we wet test. My wife liked the more aggressive form fitting in the Jacuzzi in comparison to the Twilight. We had, oddly, noticeably worse buoyancy issues in our wet test of the Twilight—neither of us could even stay sitting down/back in the therapy seat. Neither of us is pure muscle, but we should have had as much trouble as we did and we didn’t have those issues in the Jacuzzi. We also had noticeably worse chemical smell/feel on our skin after getting out and drying off from the Twilight as well as the water stinging my wife’s eye when she accidentally splashed some. Is it possible that this sales guy just has no clue what he is doing with the chemicals and is way overdosing on the salt and chlorine both for his floor model? He did straight up tell me that he doesn’t really bother with the alkalinity and just makes sure the chlorine is in the “ok” range on the test strip bottle. He even brought over and showed me the bottle. He wasn’t even sure what numbers, off the top of his head, that “ok” range represented (I believe it was 3-5ppm on the bottle). This tub was running the salt system as well. While I am wondering about his Chlorine levels, do the free Chlorine byproducts (Chloramines, Cyanuric Acid, etc) also cause skin/eye irritation and smell as they build up in a hot tub?

Separately, we were pretty annoyed with how the diverter valves divvied up the water in the Twilight (and that they were both on one side of the tub and not supposed to be changed while the pumps were running). Neither of us really felt there was enough water pressure in the hydrotherapy seat with its diverter set to the middle, however, if you turn that valve fully to the hydrotherapy seat, it completely shuts off 3 other seats. That’s fine by itself, but if you also want the second diverter valve set to full power for the foot jets (which are positioned decently to be used by the hyrdrotherapy seat), it totally shuts off all other seats on the other side! So… you were left with a very large and expensive single seater tub! Otherwise, you have to choose to have half power foot jets or no foot jets at all to get good pressure for the two seats across from the hydrotherapy seat. I get that those master blaster foot jets take a ton of water flow, it’s just pretty lame that you can’t have high power there and at the hydrotherapy seat if you have more than just one person in the tub.

The Master Spa guy also pulled the sleezy car salesman routine about the owner telling them to increase the tub prices, but that he could hold the previously quoted price for us if we got back to him by closing the next day… my wife about told him straight up right there that he just lost any chance of a sale at all. Why do these reps still think this is a good tactic to use???

For Master Spa’s, I have been primarily looking at the Twilight 8.2 as I know it is the best bang for your buck, but I’m becoming a little more intrigued by the LSX 800 if it has more molded seats and the wife would be a lot more comfortable in them. My main issue there is that these guys don’t even have a Legend series model on the floor (wet or dry) to sit in (or a wet Twilight 8.2 for that matter). For Jacuzzi, we were mainly checking out a 2025 model they had on the floor discounted (I believe it was a J475 and I think they had ~$18,500 on it). For reference, both of these stores have been in town for quite a while and have respectable ratings on google. The Master Spas store also sells Cal Spas and Nordic Spas and has a 4.7 rating with 59 reviews and the Jacuzzi store has a 4.8 rating with 314 reviews.

Thank you for your time,
Brady

Brady,

On the TruWater numbers, I would not treat this as unique to Jacuzzi.

Everybody has a miracle chemical reduction story.

Jacuzzi has TruWater. Master has EcoPur and now the salt system. Hot Spring has silver cartridges and ozone. Bullfrog has its version. Every showroom has some version of, “You will barely use chemicals.”

And honestly, most of them underquote the real world.

I have heard Master dealers tell customers that just because the EcoPur ion cartridge is standard, they will have to do almost nothing and run almost no chlorine. That is not reality either. So this is not me picking on Jacuzzi. This is the spa industry doing spa industry things.

The real question is not whether TruWater can help. It probably can.

The question is whether it reliably lets a daily use hot tub live at 0.5 ppm chlorine with almost no owner input. That is the part I would be careful with.

Yes, on the Master salt test, we held just under 1 ppm most of the time.

I can put you in touch with Bill, who had that test system on his own tub. He still has it, because he kept it after the salt test. He ran it on the lowest setting and maintained just below 1 ppm the whole time. You can ask him directly what the process was like, how much he had to touch it, and what the water felt like.

That kind of firsthand feedback is more useful than brochure math from any brand.

On low chemical ownership, enzymes are simple and reliable.

We ran showroom tubs for years at around 0.5 ppm using Spa Marvel. Enzyme is one of the best add ins out there, in my opinion. It does not replace chlorine or bromine as the legal sanitizer, but it reduces the organic load, so the sanitizer has less work to do.

That is how you get lower chemical feel without pretending chemistry stopped existing.

Same thing with Aqua Finesse. It is a very good add in mineral and water care system. It is also expensive, around $150 every three months. We ran showroom tubs on that too, right around 0.5 ppm to under 1 ppm. It worked well.

But there is always the other side of this, work level.

On Jacuzzi TruWater, enzyme programs, or Master’s standard mineral setup, you still have to dose chlorine unless you have a system actively making or feeding sanitizer.

If you use the FROG cartridge, the lowest you are realistically going to get is around 1 ppm because that is basically what the dose is. Even Jacuzzi’s own documentation says with the FROG system you are in the 0.5 to 1 ppm range. Without FROG, yes, you can run closer to 0.5 ppm, but now you are manually dosing every two or three days with a teaspoon of granulated chlorine.

That is not hard, but it is more work.

And if you miss it, the tub can go sideways fast.

On minerals, the cartridges you are talking about are ion systems.

Master uses copper and zinc ions. Jacuzzi uses silver. Both are mineral systems. Both can help. I do not see a giant real world difference between the two. They are support systems. They are not magic sanitizer replacement systems. the aqua finese mineral system is a different monster you add it in weekly.

The bigger difference is whether the main sanitizer system is doing the work automatically or whether you are doing it by hand.

As for the Lincoln water comment, saying salt systems do not work there is simply false.

Lincoln water does not prevent a salt system from working. The fill water is high in alkalinity and a bit high in pH, so a salt tub needs proper startup balancing. The alkalinity should be lowered into the manufacturer’s range, pH brought down, and a fill filter or metal protect used.

If that is not done, you can get scale, pH drift, or reduced cell performance.

But that is a water balance issue, not proof salt systems do not work in Lincoln.

Using an X10 or similar pre filter is smart, especially for a salt tub. It can reduce metals, sediment, chlorine, odors, rust, and other junk before it gets into the spa. That makes startup cleaner and can help protect the salt cell.

But it is not the same as softening or reverse osmosis.

It probably will not lower Lincoln’s 164 ppm alkalinity or 192 ppm hardness enough to skip balancing. You still fill, test, lower alkalinity, adjust pH, and then let the system do its job.

On the wet test, I would be careful not to overread that showroom tub.

The water condition in a floor model is random. That Twilight test was not proving what the Master salt system will feel like in your backyard. It was proving that the dealer may not be great at water care.

Eye sting is usually pH, alkalinity, or combined chlorine. Not salt. Not “too much jetting.” Not brand.

If the guy told you he does not really bother with alkalinity and just keeps chlorine somewhere in the “OK” range on a strip bottle, then yes, that explains a lot. That tub could have had high pH, low pH, high combined chlorine, old water, high sanitizer, bad alkalinity, or all of the above.

A wet test tells you seat fit and jet feel.

It does not reliably tell you long term water quality unless the dealer is actually maintaining the water correctly.

On the buoyancy issue in the Twilight, I think that was mostly a function of pump power and diverter position.

The Jacuzzi J475 uses two 3 horsepower pumps and no diverters on that model. In the main seat, you basically have one 4 horsepower pump feeding several seats. So that one seat is probably seeing something like 2 horsepower worth of water flow.

The Master Twilight runs two 6 horsepower pumps with diverters. When you sat in that main captain’s chair, they likely had the diverter stealing all the water and sending it into that one seat.

That means you were getting a 6 horsepower pump dumped into one seat versus the Jacuzzi giving you roughly a third of a smaller pump.

That is why you were getting pushed out.

Leave the diverter in the middle and now you are much closer to what the Jacuzzi was doing, just with more available flow if you decide to use it.

That is not really a negative or a positive by itself. It depends how you use the tub.

If you and your wife are both in the tub, you run the diverters in the middle and share the water. If you are in there alone after a workout and want the big massage, you steal more water and hammer one therapy seat.

Some people love that control.

Some people prefer the simpler, smoother Jacuzzi setup where the water delivery is more fixed and you are not thinking about diverter positions as much.

That is a real preference difference, not a right or wrong answer.

On the diverters, I get the annoyance.

Diverters can feel clunky in a wet test. You are trying to figure out a tub in 20 minutes, the salesperson is hovering, the valves are not where you expect them, and suddenly half the tub shuts off. That feels stupid.

But in ownership, you usually learn the two or three positions you actually use and stop thinking about it.

The reason Twilight has that much control is because it is moving a lot of water through large therapy jets.

Big jets need water.

The Master Blaster foot jets take a lot of flow. The big therapy seat takes a lot of flow. That is why the system can feel like a single monster therapy station when everything is diverted hard.

That is not how you run it socially. That is how you run it when you want serious therapy.

Jacuzzi takes the other approach. Less diverter management, more even delivery, less chance of accidentally robbing one side of the tub. That can feel better in a wet test and may be better for people who do not want to fiddle with valves.

So again, not wrong either way.

On seating, I would also be careful with the “Jacuzzi felt more molded” take.

The J475 and Twilight are actually pretty similar from a shell molding standpoint. Neither is a deep bucket, locked in, heavily sculpted seat design. They are both open style premium tubs.

If we were comparing Twilight to something like an Instinct Spa, then yes, Instinct has more heavily molded bucket seating and that becomes a real seat fit conversation.

But between the Twilight and the J475, the big difference you felt was probably more water flow and diverter position than shell design.

That said, your wife liking the Jacuzzi lounge matters.

A wet test is not meaningless. If she fit the Jacuzzi lounge better, stayed planted better, and liked the feel better, that counts. Comfort is not a brochure spec. You either fit the seat or you do not.

The LSX 800 may be worth looking at because it is a more premium tub and may feel different from the Twilight, it is more contoured and you definitely stick in the seat harder.

On the old J475 versus the new 2026 J400, there is one detail worth correcting.

I assumed you were testing the newer J400. The new one does not have the same diffuser setup. The older J475 does have diffusers. So that is a fair point in favor of the older floor model feel.

But again, the pump package is still smaller than the Twilight setup. The Jacuzzi is using a smoother, less adjustable delivery. The Master is giving you more top end flow and more control.

Different feel.

Not automatically better or worse.

On the high back 2025 J475 at $18,500, that is high for a running floor model, i would suspect through the buyers service we can get that number down, also when it was put into the floor matters is this a 16 month old tub? or a 6 month old tub? ask for the date of manufacture

I can also take a run at the price of the new Jacuzzi for you

The cover is still a concern. That high back cover is custom, heavier, more expensive, and long term replacement could be more annoying now that the high back design is being phased out.

Not a deal killer.

Just a real ownership note.

On the Master dealer’s pressure tactic, yeah, that is garbage.

The “owner told us prices are going up tomorrow” routine is old car lot nonsense. It does not mean the tub is bad. It means the salesperson needs better training.

I hate that tactic because it makes a strong product look shady.

Do not reward pressure.

Get the written quote, exact model, delivery, cover, steps, lifter, electrical, salt system, taxes, everything. Then we work from paper.

Big picture, Brady, you are already in the solid zone.

A Jacuzzi J475 and a Master Twilight or LSX are both serious tubs. You are not comparing a good tub to junk. You are probably looking at two of the top tubs I would even have on the list for a therapy buyer.

If you buy the Jacuzzi because your wife loves the lounge, the dealer is stronger, and the simpler water flow feels better to you, I am not going to tell you that you made a bad move.

It is a good spa.

If you buy the Master because you want more adjustable therapy, strong build fundamentals, common parts, and the on demand salt option, that is also a good move.

The real mistake would be paying too much for either one, or letting a salesperson turn a close decision into a panic buy.

So my read is balanced.

Jacuzzi is the easier showroom sell. Good comfort, good brand, good jet feel, less diverter fiddling, strong dealer presence, and that floor model may be a legit buy if the number is right.

Master is the stronger value and therapy machine on paper, with more pump control, strong build fundamentals, and a water care system I have more firsthand confidence in.

Neither one is junk.

Neither one is a runaway.

At this point I would make the decision on three things, your wife’s actual seat fit, the final written price, and which dealer you trust more after the sales nonsense is stripped away.

We just found out about an expo in Omaha that the local Spa Master dealer is putting on where they will have an LSX 800 on the floor (dry) that we can go and sit in to see fit. I know it won't be as good as a wet test, but it might be good enough for us to make a decision. We are leaning that direction after talking through some different things and we really like that it has that 3rd pump that's dedicated to one of the therapy seats. I was originally quoted $18,000 for that tub and I know that includes stairs, lid, lid lift assister, and installation (but not fill and balance, they don't do that, apparently). I've read online that you can typically talk these guys down quite a bit on these top end models because they like to brag about how many of them they have actually sold since they are so much less common to sell compared to the twilight/clarity. I've also read that you can typically talk them down farther at expos and if you've been dealing with the same person for quite a while as they don't want to lose a sale they've been working on for some time (which we have). We looked back through pictures and saw that the 2025 Jacuzzi 475 had ~$16,500 written on its tag (so we can use that for negotiation as well). What I am driving at is, we are tempted to try for the sale today unless you think your service could truly get a better price for us than our negotiating today could. We also will not be financing, but paying up front in cash (I've also heard you can get a small discount for that as well). How much of a discount can you guys typically get off the Legend series spas with the PBS? Our dealer is Home Innovation Spas in Lincoln, NE.

There is never a scenario where we cant match or beat a price anywhere, yes there can be good deals at the expo and other sales events, but combine the fact that we can match pricing at worst case with the added buyers protection service and its a no brainer, get you price and text me with the numbers i will send my number to the email you Gave me.

A crushed stone base is solid as long as you excavate the are well and get rid of the fluffy top soil, then 4-6" of well tamped crusher and then drop patio stones on it. it sill last forever.

what tub do you have or are you thinking of buying?

Thanks for your reply! From reading the information you provide, likely a Master tub, but I will be in touch for support. I was concerned whether crushed stone would invalidate a warranty.

No as long as its properly laid and has patio stones on top.

We can get you better pricing on any tub, we don't sell anything we are a collective of hot tub buyers and that volume gives us two things... better pricing and guaranteed service levels because no one wants to be on the bad side of the high traffiv of buyers coming here every year :-)

Our $99 private buyers service and included buyers protection service are legend level, we guarantee to save you more than the cost of the service or refund it and the reality is our average savings is around $500 but the real kicker is the Buyer protection. If you have an issue and the seller isn't being responsive instead of going one on one you simple hit me up, I talk to them and things will resolve fast.

Rick,

That J 485 is a great tub from a great brand.

Jacuzzi is absolutely one of the better names in the industry. You had one, you liked it, and that matters. You are not looking at junk.

The issue right now is price.

Jacuzzi pricing is a little out of whack. You have the Mexico build getting hit with tariffs, you have the corporate ownership layer, and you have a big marketing machine baked into the price. That can easily add a couple grand without giving you a better massage or a better shell.

So yes, I like Jacuzzi.

I just do not love what people are paying for them right now.

For something comparable, I would be looking hard at Master Spas first. Build quality wise, they are one of the strongest plays right now, US built, privately held, self supported shell, full foam insulation, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and good common components. That is the boring stuff that matters ten years later.

Artesian would also be in the conversation, especially the Elite series. They do not clamp the plumbing anymore, so I do not have them quite where I used to, but they are still a good spa when the price is right.

If you want a step up in jet performance from the J 485, look at the Master Twilight series or the Artesian Elite series.

The Twilight in particular is a beast for real therapy. It carries more of the large high flow therapy jets, not just a bunch of little spicy jets that feel impressive for ten minutes in a wet test. Big jets move muscle mass. That is what matters for deep tissue.

Twilight also has a better neck and shoulder system, and a much stronger leg and foot setup. You can divert serious pump power to those big jets, and that is where you get the heavy massage you are talking about.

The two speed jet thing is not really the main issue. What you want is control, diverters, big plumbing, proper pump power, and large high flow therapy jets. That is what gives you relaxation when you want it and real pressure when you need it.

My recommendation is simple.

Spend the $99 on my private buyer service. It will be the best $99 you spend in this process.

I will tell you what tub I would actually buy, route you to the right seller, negotiate better pricing, and guarantee I save you more than the $99 or I refund it.

The bigger thing is Buyer Protection.

If you ever have a problem with the seller, they know damn well you are going to call me, and then I am going to call them. Instead of you fighting one on one, I am fighting with thousands of buyers behind me. Nobody in this industry wants that battle, especially with the traffic Hot Tub University gets.

People are extremely careful to take care of customers when they know the buyer came through my private buyer service.

What price did you get in writing on the J 485?

Andrew,

That is exactly what my private buyer service is built for.

You do not need a Master dealer sitting five minutes from your house to buy an LSX 700 properly. Master has national delivery, installation, and service support. Dealer proximity is not the big safety net people think it is. The real safety net is who is backing you when something needs attention.

That is where I come in.

I can process you through the factory direct side, get the pricing down to about as low as it ever gets, and make sure you are not floating around on your own after the sale.

If you ever have a service issue that is not being handled properly, you do not have to fight with a dealer, call center, or service department by yourself. You hit me up. I make the call. I put the weight of thousands of hot tub buyers behind it, and people pay attention.

That is the whole point of Hot Tub University Buyer Protection.

We do not sell tubs. We introduce you to the same local support or factory direct path, get you better pricing, and back you up after the purchase. If anyone drags their feet, you text me on my private mobile and I sort it.

There is no better protection in this industry right now than having that kind of buyer volume behind you. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of that. Everyone is a lot more careful when they know the customer came through HTU.

Jump on the private buyer service. It is $99. I will save you way more than $99 on the purchase, or I will refund it, and I will throw in Buyer Protection for free. BTW that applies to any tub of any brand you want to purchase...

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thank you for the reply! What do you think a realistic price is with the salt water system?

close to the $18k range.

Did you check out the twiligh 7.2? in my opinion its a m=better massage jet system and same build. closer to $15k

Yes I have. I actually am wanting that one after reading all of your posts. I thought I saw somewhere that you said 12,500 was a realistic number for one. Maybe that was without the salt water system.

$12500 was for a demo or blem in the 7.2 without salt and even that was a one off crazy price, and older, everything is up in price in the last 18 months

Hi Krista,

I do not have a published decibel rating for the Master Spas Clarity Balance 7 specifically. In real world use though, a properly installed hot tub with the cover closed is extremely quiet. At about five feet away, you typically only hear a very low background hum from the circulation pump, and in many backyard settings it blends into normal ambient outdoor noise.

The situations where noise complaints can happen are usually not from airborne sound, but from vibration transfer. For example:

If the spa is placed on a deck attached to the home, vibration can travel through the framing and create a low harmonic hum indoors.

If the concrete pad is mechanically connected to a shared wall, fence structure, or neighboring foundation, low frequency vibration can transfer surprisingly efficiently.

The best practice is to install the spa on an isolated concrete pad or patio stone base directly on grade, separated from surrounding structures. That setup eliminates nearly all meaningful vibration transfer and keeps operation very quiet for both the homeowner and adjacent neighbors.

With the cover off during use, the majority of the sound people notice is typically from normal conversation, water movement, and splashing, not from the spa equipment itself.

With the insulated cover on, the spa should not create disruptive noise for neighboring properties under normal operation.

do you have pricing yet?

if so what number are you getting?

Thank you for your reply - the knowledge and experience you have are so helpful.

Im not gonna lie that's a solid price on the clarity we can process it for you through the same seller and ill throw in the buyers protection service so if you ever had conflict with the dealer instead of a one on one battle you hit me up and ill move the weight of thousands of buyers behind it. That never fails to get resolution fast!

Also check out the Instinct spa line... same build and better pricing...

David,

No, the Hot Spring is not worth the extra 4k. Not even close.

Let’s break it down.

Master Spas is the largest manufacturer in the U.S., top three globally, and one of the last big players that’s still family owned.

No tariff hit, no bloated corporate overhead, just a company that’s been building spas for over 25 years and putting the money into the product.

Hot Spring is the opposite.

Corporate owned, built in Mexico, and loaded with tariffs, shipping costs, and heavy marketing baked into the price.

That’s the only reason these two tubs aren’t closer in cost.

Now look at the salt systems.

Hot Spring’s system is older tech.

Higher salt, and it’s basically a dumb timer. It just produces chlorine on a schedule, whether you need it or not. So levels swing up and down depending on usage.

Master’s system is the new standard.

On demand, auto testing and dosing. It only generates chlorine when needed, holds around 1 ppm steady, and runs about half the chemical load.

That’s why it works.

Now jets.

Small jets are cheap, 20 to 30 bucks.

Mid size jets maybe 35 to 50.

Large high flow therapy jets, 80 to 100 each.

That adds up fast.

The Twilight jet package is easily 2,500 more in real value than what’s in the Pulse.

More large high flow jets, more real therapy, less filler.

These two tubs are not in the same league from a performance standpoint.

Hot Spring isn’t a bad tub.

But it’s loaded with proprietary parts.

That means you’re locked into their ecosystem for service. Only authorized dealers, higher part costs, more expensive repairs, more hassle long term.

Master uses standard, off the shelf components.

Balboa systems, common parts, plug and play, easy to service anywhere.

That matters over the life of the tub.

So no, the extra 4k isn’t buying you better performance or better build. It’s paying for brand, tariffs, and a closed system.

On the salt package, yes, I’d push for it in the deal.

If they won’t include it, it’s still worth it on the Master side. On the Hot Spring side, I wouldn’t bother.

Keep your name out of dealer systems for now. If you send me the written quotes, I’ll route you through the same sellers, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

Your price on the Twilight is super good, should be $14k at least plus the salt the hot springs we see from $12k sometimes we can renegotiate the price on it for y=sure and save you money

im gonna kick you over to my buyers team they can process these tubs through the same local dealers and caver you with our buyer protraction service, if a dealer stalls on service don't fight with them hit me up ill fight with them for you lol

Thanks for the info and confirmation on the one we are leaning toward. Besides being cheaper, the Master Spa Twilight 8.25 has the larger jets that will help with my wife’s arthritis issues. The dealer is about an hour a way from us but has “assured us that they can and do take care of the entire state of WI with service and warranty work”. Hopefully they follow through on that, I know I have seen concerns on your site as well as others that sometimes service is spotty if a dealer is not close by.

Thanks again, appreciate your input and help.

If you want I can process the order through master spas factory, they will give it to the local dealer who will make the profit and do the install service but it will give you my private buyers protection, if that dealer does not perform or you have issues hit me up and ill deal with them for you. best guarantee of solid service.

Al, this is exactly the range where Instinct makes the most sense.

Under 9k, nothing in retail stores is going to touch it, and that’s not marketing talk, that’s just how the pricing works.

When you buy through a showroom, roughly 30 percent of the price is marketing, sales staff, floor space, and all the stuff needed to get you in front of the tub.

We stripped all of that out.

So this was an 11k to 12k tub in stores, brought down to about 8.5k factory direct.

Same level of build, no fluff baked into the price.

Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam insulation, Balboa equipment. Built the right way.

No options either, which is a good thing.

One setup, one color, cover included, delivered and installed. You don’t have to guess or worry about building it wrong.

For what you’re describing, relaxing, light massage, lounger, this fits well.

It’s not a heavy therapy tub like Twilight, but it’s comfortable, well laid out, and hits that “soak and relax” use case properly.

On size, you’re both on the shorter side, so you don’t need to go big.

There is a larger version if you want more room to stretch out, but most couples your size are perfectly happy in the standard layout, especially with the lounger.

Now on chemicals.

There’s no such thing as zero chemical, anyone telling you that is selling something.

But this is where it gets better.

Instinct is salt ready.

When the salt system is back in stock, it’s a plug and play module you drop in.

And this isn’t the typical salt system.

Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo-yo chemistry.

This one is on demand, auto testing and dosing, and runs about 30 percent lower salt while holding around 1 ppm steady.

That’s the gold standard right now.

You’ll still check pH periodically, maybe once a week, but in beta testing we were only adjusting water three, maybe four times in a full year, and those were minor pH tweaks.

So very low maintenance compared to anything else out there.

Only real downside is timing.

Typically 4 to 6 weeks for delivery, maybe 8 if you’re in a remote spot or just miss a shipment.

That’s it.

At your budget, for a lounger, easy maintenance, and solid build, this is the cleanest option on the market right now.

We can line it up so you don’t get pulled into dealer systems, get the right pricing, and you’re covered if anything comes up.

Awesome, really appreciate the info Chris.