Hot Tub Bases - What's under your tub?

Hi Deborah,

Yes, BeWell Spas is a division of Trevi. They're not badly made hot tubs, but they're not great either. You're getting a lower end cradle supported shell and a lower end insulation system, and I believe they may have stopped clamping the plumbing recently.

Here's the thing on plumbing. Most manufacturers either glue or clamp their connections. The gold standard is to glue and clamp, but very few brands still bother. The only one I can think of for sure is Master Spas.

So $9,999 isn't a bad price, and it's not a bad tub overall. But efficiency is going to suffer, and the cradle supported shell is a real concern. The shell is the most expensive part of your hot tub and the one part that generally can't be fixed if it fails.

Know what you're actually getting and price it accordingly. If you want, our Private Buyers Service is free, and we can check what that tub or a better built alternative should really cost in your area.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Joel,

Twenty one years out of a Grandee is a great run, and you're right that Minnesota changes the shopping list. When your heaviest use is in the dead of winter, full foam insulation is critical, and open cell foam in particular.

Here's the thing on Hot Springs. Watkins builds them, and Watkins is owned by Masco. When you bought your tub it was built in the U.S. and the build quality was a little higher. Now it's made in Mexico and corporate owned, and the pricing is out to lunch. That's typical when big equity money gets into a brand. They spend heavily on marketing and advertising, and now you're eating the tariffs coming out of Mexico on top of that. They also no longer clamp the plumbing, it's glue only, and some of their tubs use a high density foam that's a real nightmare when you need to track down and repair a leak.

Their salt system is also getting old. It runs about 30% higher salt than the newer systems, and more importantly it's timer based. It makes chlorine on a schedule whether you need it or not. Nobody uses their tub the same way every week, so on a week you're in it a lot the chlorine drops and your water goes off, and on a week you skip because of weather you come back to a tub that's way too high.

The gold standard now is on demand. Master Spas is the first to bring it out, and we beta tested it for a full year. It has a built in tester that checks your chlorine level and only makes more when it drops, so it stays stable no matter how you use the tub. It also runs 30% lower salt than anything else on the market, low enough that corrosion really isn't an issue for concrete, wood decks, or the parts in the tub itself. We've tested several salt systems over the years and never recommended one until now. Our test tub was used by two people on a regular basis, and I think we adjusted the pH maybe four times all year. That was it. The tub maintained itself and the water quality stayed good.

As for your checklist, the only manufacturer we know of that does a fully self supporting shell, glued and clamped plumbing at every jet and every manifold, full open cell foam, and open market parts is the Instinct Spa. It's built by Master Spas and available factory direct at very good pricing. The rest of the Master Spas line is similar, and all of them can take the new salt system.

Pricing runs from about $8,500 to $8,600 factory direct up to close to $17,000, depending on jet package and bells and whistles. Add roughly $1,300 to $1,500 for the salt system.

So give me an idea of your budget and I can point you to exactly where we should be looking.

Cheers,
Chris

Thx Chris for your reply. Thx for validating my concerns. I was thinking along the lines of Master Spas.

But What do you think of Arctic? Namely the Summit. They have solid self supporting construction in their acrylic. However not sure about their Jets. What I seem to be interested in is how easy it is to access all plumbing connections in case of leaks. They do offer packages for different numbers of jets and pumps. Depending on hydro therapy preferences. And their chemical maintenance strategy seems to make sense. Especially for their automated saltwater system. They have a forever floor system too which seems to make sense. My concern is how energy efficient they are.

Would appreciate your thoughts?

Thx Chris. Skol!

Hi Joel,

Arctic is a Canadian brand, and honestly they're a mixed bag. They're not on my recommended list.

The shell is good, simple as that. The acrylic itself is pretty much standard across the industry, but Arctic backs it with a good heavy fiberglass layup, and it's a true self-supporting shell. No complaints there.

The jets are another story. They're Rising Dragon out of China, one of the cheapest jets on the market, with thin plastic bodies. Arctic puts their own label on them, like they do with a lot of their components, but underneath it's still Rising Dragon.

On plumbing access, which I know is your big concern, this is where they fall down. They don't clamp their plumbing lines, which raises the odds of a leak in the first place. And for access they use small removable panels that work more like portholes than real access. If your leak happens to be right behind one, great. If not, it's a nightmare.

Their saltwater system is automated, and that part is good. It works a lot like the Master Spas system, which is the only other on-demand system out there. The catch is that Arctic runs a much higher salt level, somewhere around 40 to 50 percent higher. Bigger problem: Arctic designed their own heating and control pack to go with it, and it was a disaster. They went back to Gecko controls on everything else, but if you choose their salt system you're still stuck with that proprietary pack. High failure rate, questionable parts supply, made in China somewhere. That pack pretty much undoes the benefit of the salt system.

The Forever Floor is interesting, but it's mostly marketing. It's pressed fiberglass, and fiberglass doesn't love living in a wet environment unless it's fully sealed. On a boat we gelcoat everything so water never touches the glass. Arctic does protect it to some degree, and then they screw mounts and supports right into it, so now you've got penetrations in that fiberglass. I'm not saying the floor will fail. It won't. It's just over-engineered for no real reason. A good ABS bottom pan already is a forever floor. ABS doesn't care about water and will outlast the rest of the tub.

Now energy efficiency. Arctic uses a perimeter insulation system. When you open the access door it looks impressive because the insulation on the cabinet walls is thick. But slide your hand in toward the back of the shell and you'll notice it's pretty thin there. Perimeter insulation is not better than full foam. The R value is lower, and there's no way a lower R value system beats a higher one. Simple as that. Two or three inches of high density foam on the shell isn't going to compete with a full foam tub, not even close.

They'll also talk about reclaiming motor heat, but every tub does that. On a full foam tub, the equipment bay up front has intakes that feed the ozone system and the venturis on the jets, so heat is actively pulled out of that cabinet and put right into the water. A perimeter system collects that heat passively, through the shell and the plumbing. The shell has high density foam on it, so it won't absorb much, and a lot of that heat just goes out through the cabinet walls. A perimeter system is the cheaper way to build a tub. Full foam is the gold standard.

The other thing to know right now is price. Arctic builds in Canada, and with the current trade fight, Canadian goods coming into the US are getting hit with tariffs. That cost doesn't get eaten by the manufacturer. It goes straight onto your price tag, and that's a big part of why Arctic pricing is so high right now. You're paying a premium that has nothing to do with the tub itself.

I did a review of an Arctic Spa a while back, and everything in it still applies to their current lineup:
https://youtu.be/FHgXSlKzPAI?si=qqboOGGqaRe8GVF3

And here's a video on how the different insulation systems compare:
https://youtu.be/4XhgwOQKQFs?si=5M6mO-CDpvPMnKlO

So you were on the right track with Master Spas. Happy to dig into specific models with you if that helps.

Chris

Hi Casey,

Northern Bay is part of the Saratoga group, built out of Pennsylvania. They're a decent manufacturer, but the build quality is nowhere near what you're looking at with the Master Spas Twilight. The shell is decent, but I believe they're using a cheap perimeter insulation system, and I believe they're only gluing the plumbing lines, not gluing and clamping.

Here's the thing on Direct Impact Therapy and Passive Impact Therapy. That's marketing spin. Nobody has a magic jet out there, and they're all very similar. In fact the Cypress uses CMP jets, the same supplier Master Spas uses. The real difference is the jet package, and the Cypress is nowhere near the Twilight. It's actually below the Clarity. You get two large high flow therapy jets in the side of the main captain's chair, the rest are three and a half inch mid flows, and then a bunch of low flow jets, especially in the neck and shoulder area. So no real neck and shoulder jetting. It's middle of the road.

You're not wrong about the Twilight vs Clarity difference, by the way. That's the real jetting upgrade in the Master line, and you can feel it.

If you ever wanted to go down to a Cypress level jet package, I'd steer you towards Instinct Spas instead. It's the Master Spas factory direct line, and for about $8,600 delivered and installed you get better jetting than the Cypress, better insulation, and glued and clamped plumbing. Bang for the buck, I just wouldn't put Northern Bay or Saratoga on my highly recommended list.

Now, the half the price comment. What price do you have on the TS 7.25? We can probably get that down for you through the same seller. We get special factory rebates from manufacturers, and Master Spas in particular gives us very good deals. When we make the introduction, we deal directly with the owners, which saves them money on their end and saves you money on yours. They pay us a referral fee, so you pay less, and I use that fee to cover you with our buyer's protection at no charge. That means if anything goes sideways with the seller, the delivery, or a warranty claim down the road, you've got us in your corner going to bat for you.

Send me your quote and we'll see what we can do.

Cheers,
Chris

$13,400 out the door, that includes taxes, delivery, cover, cover lift and stairs. Master Spa Twilight
$7,500 out the door, that includes taxes, delivey, cover, cover lift and stairs. Northern Bay Cypress
Kansas City Area

One othter detail I really light about Master Spa Twlight w/o the lounger is that you can step into the unit on a sea foam step vs steping in the unit on the hump of a lounger.

Yeah the soft step is cool and non slip, its the same stuff they use for boat decks on million dollar yachts.

IM getting bill to reach out with pricing options fromt he same seller...

Hi Sharon,

Artesian is a good brand. Made in the U.S., so you dodge some of the tariff hit. Here's the thing though. They were bought by a private equity firm, and that cranked the pricing up the way it always does. Over the two years after the acquisition we saw jumps of $2,000 to $3,000 above everything else in the market.

Equity investment is wrecking this industry. These firms snap up companies, pour money into marketing and branding because they know that's where the real value is, and cut corners in production. With Artesian, one of those cuts is that they no longer clamp the plumbing. That dropped them pretty significantly on our plumbing reliability score. And with almost everything equity owned now, there's very little real competition left. You're mostly playing one owner off another.

On the Santa Cruz specifically, it's not a bad tub, but performance is middle of the road. There are only two of the large, high flow therapy jets and they're both in the same spot, upper glutes and lower back. The neck and shoulder jets are all small, cheap, low flow jets, and the foot jets are the same story. Not much there if neck and shoulders matter to you.

Now, Master Spas and service. Master doesn't lean on the dealer network the way Artesian and most other brands do. Dealers are expensive and that cost gets added straight onto the price of your tub. Instead they use service centers, and there absolutely is one in your area. I checked your zip code. There are a couple thousand hot tubs around you, and we're seeing no real complaints and no red flags on service levels there.

Dealers love to tell you that you need a local seller for service. That's dated thinking. Real talk, your warranty is almost never going to get used, and in most cases it never will. What actually matters is a well built tub with parts you can source easily and someone nearby who can handle basic service. Where you live, that's not a problem.

If you want to widen the net, we can also pull Jacuzzi into the mix. Slightly better build overall, but it's made in Mexico so it's tariff affected, and it's equity owned too. We'll get Master pricing for you either way.

What price are you seeing on the Santa Cruz? If it's too high, we can call the local seller and very likely get it down.

And I'll be straight with you about how we work. If we help you buy your tub, the seller pays us something. But you save money. We bypass the sales floor and deal directly with owners. The sales floor adds 7 to 10% to the cost of your tub. When we go to an owner, that cost isn't there. They give us a little of that savings and they give you a lot of it.

Your protection gets better too. We help people buy nearly $30 million worth of hot tubs every year and sellers know it. They know we made the introduction. They know if you're not happy, you won't be fighting them one on one. You'll be talking to me, and I'll be calling them. That's not a conversation they want to have.

The best guarantee of good service isn't being close to a dealer. It's having a heavy hitter in your corner. That's what we bring.

Send me that Santa Cruz price and we'll go from there.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Chris,thanks for answering my question Im pretty sure we are going with master spa went and looked at the TS67.25 like the smaller size yet can accommodate 4 people . Absolutely love the powerful jets and easy to use large setting dial should be easy to use. I can't tell how extremely helpful this site is and was in our decision thanks so much for all your help regards Sharon Bozik

good call better build and a lot better jetting, what price?

$11995.00 plus tax , im so impressed with the therapy jets the look is beautiful and more modern nice touch on the lighted skirt hoping to see again this Thursday and put money down i have Arthritis, so for me, this is huge. My husband probably won't be able to get me out of it.lol

Hi Andrew,

You're down to two really good brands. Jacuzzi and Master are both old school players, both in the top three producers, and both build solid tubs.

Here's the thing though. The J-235 is a big downgrade from the rest of the Jacuzzi lineup. It no longer comes with a full foam insulation package, and it uses cheaper framing and a cheaper shell. I don't recommend the Jacuzzi 200 series. If you're going to go Jacuzzi, step into the 300 series or higher.

It's funny you've heard the Master Spas lower lines don't insulate as well as the higher end ones, because they do. They all use a full foam insulation package, and they add heat reclamation off the motors. That's as good as it gets for energy efficiency. It's the most expensive insulation system you can put on a hot tub, and for an Alberta winter that's exactly what you want.

So if you're after a good, well functioning tub that's easy to repair with plug and play parts, you can't go too far wrong with the Bar Harbour LE or the LH7.

Whether it's worth stretching to the Clarity series really depends on what you want. The Balance 7 is a great tub and the jetting is slightly better. But to make a real fundamental difference, meaning properly reverse molded neck jet seating and high flow jetting, you'd have to step up to the Twilight series, and that pushes you closer to $20,000. Insulation won't change on the way up. You'd be paying for jets.

I'll have Bill reach out to you. He'll verify pricing in your area, and he can probably negotiate that J-235 down and work the numbers on the Bar Harbour or the LH7, or the Clarity if you decide to go that route.

Cheers,

Hi Garret,

Stay away from that one. Westwinds isn't a real manufacturer. Those tubs come out of Sunrans, a factory in Guangdong, China, and Westwinds is just a name slapped on them by a rebrander. They buy the tubs in, change the badge, and present themselves like they build them. They don't.

Here's the thing. That's the same kind of tub you can pull off Alibaba for around three grand. By the time it's gone through the rebrander, the importer, and a dealer, everybody's taken their cut and you're paying real hot tub money for a cheap tub. And when something breaks, good luck finding out who actually stands behind it.

So yes, spending more on a brand that actually builds its own tubs is usually the smarter move. But that doesn't automatically mean 5 to 10K more. There's often a better tub out there for close to what you're looking at now.

Tell me what model they showed you, what they're asking for it, and what your budget is. Then we can point you at something worth the money.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Sharon,

Good on you for asking before you buy. Here's the real talk on the three you're looking at.

Sundance and Jacuzzi are the same company. They're built in Mexico and owned by a private equity investment firm. The build has been pretty decent, but prices are too high for what you get, and we're starting to see some cost cutting creep in. They're moving to steel frames on some lines. They'll sell it as an upgrade, probably starting on the higher end models and then trickling it down to the cheaper ones. The truth is it's just cheaper to build. Steel frames are noisy, they have lousy thermal properties, and they fit nicely on a production line. That's the real reason they're doing it. Stay away from steel frames.

Bullfrog is also corporate owned by equity investors, and the JetPak system is a gimmick. Instead of a proper manifold pressure system, they use cheap loop plumbing, so the jet pressure is weak. There are also sanitation problems behind those packs, and over the years you end up with a lot of band aid repairs. Looks cool on the showroom floor, not so cool five years in.

For 3 or 4 people you've got plenty of good options, and you don't have to spend big to avoid junk.

Let me know what models you're looking at and what prices they've quoted you. I can probably get your pricing down through the same sellers and cover you with our buyer's protection, free of charge.

Cheers,
Chris

Hey Bret,

Quick first question on that Cal Spa quote. That 12,500 including the upgraded insulation package? Their standard insulation is pretty low end and where you are in Tulsa with those cold winters, the full foam upgrade is worth every penny. Usually runs around 500 bucks but makes a real difference on your heating costs.

Now on Master Spa. Here's the thing about how they operate. They're privately held, family owned, which is a huge difference from most of the companies out there. They also intentionally keep their dealer network sparse. Sounds backwards but it's smart because dealership overhead is brutal. Compress too many dealers in one area and prices go way up. Instead they've got service centers nationwide so you've got support everywhere and parts are all standard so repairs are easy.

The bigger issue I'd point out is that Cancun model. Those floor jets under the floor are old school and honestly they're a problem. Nobody does them anymore for good reason. They're the number one leak point because people step on them and it's a nightmare to repair underneath. Plus you're running water under there with minimal insulation, which means big heat loss through the floor. Most manufacturers moved those jets to the sides years ago. I'm really not a fan of that design.

The other thing, that Cancun's got a cradle supported shell too, which is cheaper but less reliable than a full self-supported build. That's a concern.

Here's where we can actually help you. We negotiate deals with sellers on both tubs and we back it with buyer's protection. Meaning if there's an issue, the seller knows we're in the mix and they're going to move fast to keep you happy because they know we'll have leverage when we call. We deal direct with the manufacturers, bypass the sales floor costs, and that savings gets passed back to you. That 12,500 on the Cal Spa is probably higher than it needs to be, and we can get you better Master Spa pricing than you'll find at a fair or anywhere else because we circumvent that whole sales structure.

I'm going to have Bill reach out to you with pricing on both. He'll handle the negotiation and make sure you're taken care of.

Thanks for the information. No, the price didn’t include any upgraded insulation or sales tax. I never thought about the lower jet issue, I appreciate that thought. Look forward to hearing from Bill. Thanks again.

Hey Brandon,

So you're probably talking about the Waikiki 864 Elite. Yeah, it's a pretty solid tub overall, but here's the thing about where it sits right now.

First the good news. It's built by Artesian Spas out of Las Vegas, which means US made. That matters because you completely sidestep the tariff hit on Mexican and Canadian stuff, and especially the Chinese gear. It used to be in my top tier list. Then they got acquired like everybody else and once equity gets their claws into a brand, prices go straight up. We used to see this one around 11K. Now it's sitting closer to 12K.

Here's where I'd give you pause though. They stopped clamping the plumbing. That's a real thing because plumbing reliability is what separates a tub that lasts from one that becomes a leak factory, and leaks are what kill hot tubs. Master Spas is about the only outfit still doing glue and clamp, which is the gold standard. Artesian switched to glue only, which is fine but not as reliable.

The other thing is the jetting is weak. Lots of jets but mostly tiny cheap ones. Very few of the big high flow jets that actually move water. The ones they do have? Both up in the upper glute and lower back. Nothing in the neck and shoulders except cheap low flows. Feels good when you put your hand in front of it but that's high pressure low flow. What you actually want is big jets moving high volumes. They're rare and expensive.

At 12K retail it's not bad value, but if there was a factory direct option you'd probably grab it at 9K. They're not there yet.

For comparison, I'd look at a Bullfrog X7, similar quality but they do clamp the plumbing. J345 Jacuzzi is comparable but it's Mexico made so tariff hit. Better bets to me are Master Spas Clarity series which is glued and clamped with slightly better build overall, or Instinct Spas factory direct, same solid build and better jetting package especially neck and shoulders.

Hi Lindsey,

Brand wise, the gold standard stuff is the same everywhere: Jacuzzi, Master Spas, and Artesian. Those are the quality names. The challenge in European markets is you're going to find a lot of Chinese rebrands floating around, which is basically the bottom of the barrel.

On pricing and what's actually available at your budget in the UK, I'm not confident enough to steer you wrong. I just don't have my finger in that pie well enough.

What I'd suggest is hunt down dealers for those three brands in your area and see what they've got at the 6K mark or close to it. If they can't touch it, then you know you're looking at the used market as your realistic option.

On the health side and your situation with the bed-bound days, definitely emphasize to whoever you talk to that low maintenance is non-negotiable. That should be part of the conversation from the start.

Sorry I can't give you better intel on the UK side of things.

Thankyou dont suppose you know if its worth buying these monthly warranties if I have to buy 2nd hand ? "The hot tub warranty" company keeps popping up for me ? Thankyou for all your advice

Monthly warranties are only as good as the seller, they are not factory they are dealer level, what kind oof pricing are you seeing and what are the terms?

Hi £30 a month , £100 call out fee and an excess depending on repair cost in stages of £0 upto 500 repair & labour costs, £199 for £500 to £2k repair and £299 above that. Im just scared we will buy a 5k 2nd hand tub and then it will breakdown.

could be decent might be crap, ask them for sample pricing... say a heat core replacement, and a main pump replacement

We beta tested the Master Spa salt system for a year and it completely changed our minds about onboard salt. We'd been against salt systems for years because honestly, they weren't worth it. The existing ones pushed high salt levels that were corrosive, and they were all dumb timer-based systems that just produce chlorine on a schedule regardless of how you're actually using the tub.

That's the core problem with timer systems. Sodium chloride goes through electrolysis to make chlorine, but it happens on a timer. Use the tub a lot one week, you run out of chlorine. Don't use it much, the chlorine spikes. You get this yo-yo chemistry that's annoying to manage.

This Master Spa system is different in two ways. First, it runs at 30 percent lower salt than anything else out there. That's way below the salt in your tears, so no corrosion issues. But here's the real game changer: it has a built-in tester that monitors chlorine levels and only produces chlorine when the water actually needs it. The system adjusts to your usage, not a calendar.

We made about four chemistry adjustments in a year. Kept chlorine stable around one part per million without any of the swings. It just works. No guessing, no constant tweaking.

Is it going to stay exclusive? No. Once this gets reverse engineered, other manufacturers will copy the sensor-based approach within the next year or so. But right now, there's nothing else that can touch it.

What tub are you looking at and do you have pricing yet?

Twilight 7.25 $15,999 for the tub with no options

Also $1000 for the salt system.

Ill get bill to reach out to you we can get that processed for you and cover you with buyers protection for free through the shame seller.

They have the highest R-value insulation system available, its a specialty full foam system that is the most expensive system available on any hot tub and is easy to repair leaks on although leaks are unlikely on this build as they not only use the newest compression fittings on the shell to jet housing interface but also they are one of the only brands that both Glues and Clamps the plumbing lines most brands do one or the other.

How does that compare to the Bullfrog R7?

Hi Andrea,

So comparing Instinct to the Bullfrog R7. Here's the thing.

Bullfrog is a decent brand but they're barely hanging on to a top five position right now. Got acquired by equity investors so prices jumped up two, three grand. That's overpricing, period.

The real problem with Bullfrog is their shell construction. It's cradle supported, which is cheap to build but less reliable. That's the most expensive part of your tub and the most critical part, so you don't cut corners there. That's a no go for me.

Now the R7 has their jetpack system, so I'd steer clear entirely. Those have been a nightmare since day one. Sanitation issues behind the packs, mold and bacteria building up. They've put some band-aids on it but it involved stealing water from the jets to flow behind the pack, which just creates a shitty pressure system. Plus everyone online complains about taking the packs out every month to clean the slime out of there. That maintenance burden adds to your contamination load so you're always fighting your water chemistry.

They also use a cheap loop jet plumbing system, two-inch pipe that wraps around hitting each seat. First seat gets most of the pressure, last seat gets nothing. Compare that to a proper manifold system that splits into quarter-inch lines, way better flow, way less restriction.

If you're set on Bullfrog, their X series is okay. But honestly, at that price point the Instinct is going to give you way better shell construction, glued and clamped plumbing, and no gimmicks. It's the better tub.

For Airbnb and rental units, forget about the saltwater vs classic question for a minute, because the real answer to your problem sits somewhere else entirely.

Here's what actually matters in high turnover, high wear situations: you need readily available standard parts. I'm talking next-day delivery. Because if your tub goes down mid-booking, you're bleeding money fast and your guests are leaving bad reviews. You can't afford downtime, period.

The biggest mistake people make is thinking warranty matters. It doesn't. Not for Airbnbs. Manufacturers now run addresses through algorithms. Hit Airbnb or VRBO in their system and you're dead. Warranty void. You used to be able to slip one past them, but AI changed that game. So forget the warranty entirely and focus on one thing: standard parts you can order from Amazon or any number of suppliers at 11pm on a Saturday.

On your current list, Hot Spring is a hard pass. These tubs are made in Mexico with proprietary everything. The plumbing is glued only, no clamps. Parts are expensive and part delays are endemic because they're all coming out of Mexico. You'd be back to a dealer for overpriced proprietary components every time something needed work.

Aspen is a regional builder getting squeezed out. They can't compete with the economy of scale from the big players. The build quality is decent, nothing more, and parts supply on smaller brands like this is always going to be spotty. You don't want that risk.

What you actually want is Instinct, built by Master. US made. These guys use glued and clamped plumbing, which is almost unheard of anymore. Everyone else either glues or clamps, not both. The clamps are your insurance policy. Everything on the tub is standard OEM parts. Balboa controls, top-tier stuff. Fully self-supported shell, full foam insulation that makes any repair straightforward. Highest plumbing reliability score in the industry.

And here's the kicker: it's factory direct to you, no dealer markup. You're looking at around 8,600 bucks for a 7-foot twin pump with 40 jets. That's unheard of pricing right now. Parts drop on Amazon next day if you ever need them, and anyone can swap them in and out. Nothing proprietary, nothing weird.

For an Airbnb in your area, Instinct is the only real answer. Forget fancy. Bulletproof and simple wins every time.

Now, about those salt systems. On most of them, I'd say no. Here's why: they're on dumb timer systems. That doesn't work in an Airbnb environment. You get low usage periods, then boom, somebody books and you've got full occupancy. Your chemistry goes yo-yo because the salt generator just keeps cranking out chlorine whether anyone's in the tub or not. Doesn't matter if it's Tuesday and the tub's sitting empty. It's still making sanitizer. That's a problem.

But here's the thing with Instinct. You can get the new Master Spa system on these tubs, and it's a completely different animal. It's on demand. The system actually tests the water and only makes sanitizer when it needs it. During the week when nobody's there, it trickles just enough to keep the water clear. Then you get a big bather load come in, and it automatically bumps up the dosage to handle it. Your chemistry stays dialed. Plus, it uses 30% less salt than the standard systems, which means lower operating costs.

This matters because bad water gets you bad reviews real fast. In a rental, your tub needs to be a plus, not a minus. Clean, clear, balanced water every single time someone checks in. This system delivers that.

How do you go about ordering one directly from the factory? Who delivers and installs it? Who does maintenance and service?

You can order it here: https://instinctspas.com/ there are no options every tub comes the same delivered and installed with a dlx hard top cover.

The factory delivers and installs it into your back yard assuming its a standard delivery (no cranes needed) and it uses the local dealer network or local service people for service. If you ever have a problem with the service level we cover you with the fall back of our buyers protection service, that means you never have to have a one on one battle with the factory because if they drop the ball hit me up and ill call them and that will get things moving fast :-)

The unit runs on a standard 220v (230v) system using 2 hots, a neutral and a ground, it does need to be GFI protected but if local code allows for a plug style connection then you could wires a whip with plug I suppose, generally the 220v plugs max out at 30 amp this needs 40 amp. if you replaced the motor with a 115v unit (~$500) the system could be set up to run on a 20 amp plug but it would be a much smaller pump and reduce the jet performance.

Hey Ernest,

Good question. So here's the straight story: that hot tub isn't ours, it's Master Spa's. We brokered a deal with them to sell factory direct, and they guarantee service and support anywhere in the continental US.

What made that work is we handed them our client base, which let them cut 30% out of the price. You're looking at factory direct at $8,600 instead of the retail store price at $12,000. That 30% markup just wasn't necessary anymore.

Now on the service side in Greenville, you've got a couple of layers of protection. First, we stand behind it with our buyer's protection, so if something happens, you reach out to me and I make sure it moves. But honestly, you're unlikely to need it. These use standard parts and standard build, so any competent independent hot tub tech in your area can work on it. We've sold hundreds of these and I can tell you we've never had a customer call us with an actual service problem. Had one delay once, seven days for a tech, but one call fixed that immediately.

Here's the thing though: Master Spa knows we're posting this, you're posting this, it lands in front of over 100,000 hot tub buyers. Bad service isn't worth the hit to their reputation. They'll throw money at any problem to keep that from happening.

You're good in Greenville.

Hey Jon,

Aquavoss is a rebranding operation. They're importing generic stock tubs from China and marking them up hard.

The AV-8 you're looking at has a thin cradle-supported shell, which means instead of building the acrylic thick enough to support itself, they skimp on the material to save cost. It's less reliable. You get basic plumbing and insulation, and a steel frame.

Here's the real problem with steel in a hot tub environment: yes, you'll get rust, but that's not even the worst part. Steel transfers heat like crazy, which you don't want. It also makes the tub noisy. A timber frame does the opposite. It's strong enough, lasts longer, keeps heat in where it belongs, and runs quiet. That's why we prefer it.

You're not getting premium construction here. Price it accordingly and you'll be fine with it. But don't pay like you are.

Cheers

Hey Kenn,

Funny you ask about Canadian Spa Company. I co-founded that operation, so I'll give you the straight version.

It's a rebrander. Originally we were have good US builders make the various models for us, but it switched to importing low-end Chinese tubs, thin cradle-supported shells, cheap insulation, no clamps on the plumbing. That's when i left the company, It's entry-level marketplace stuff. Not a well-made tub, not reliable, and no, it's not what you're looking for.

Here's the real problem: you're buying a $3500 tub from a guy who's buying from a guy who's buying from a guy. All they've done is change the label and the marketing. Too many layers, too many people taking slices out of your money. That's your worst-case scenario.

What price are they asking? That'll tell me what's actually happening here.

Cheers

This is an LPI brand, typical lower end shell, insulation, plumbing etc etc. 14k is a joke you can get proper full self supported shells, full foam systems with compression fittings and glued and clamped plumbing for this kind of money.

Ill get bill to reach out with option is the local market, we can get your pricing dialed in through the local sellers and back ypu up with our buyers protection service.

I would like that very much. Look forward to future contact on purchasing a top quality spa.

Yes. Please have Bill reach out to me. Ive recently looked at Watkins brand Sundance and Jacuzzi. My last product researched was Master spa. Im thinking that one is best. I do need your help thank you.

He should be on to you today if not already i resent the request but bill is fast and efficient, check you spam or sit tight till later this am :-)

Watkins and Jacuzzi are decent builds and also the big cautionary tale. Watkins owns Hot Spring and Caldera, and Investindustrial owns Sundance and Jacuzzi. Both groups moved manufacturing to Mexico, which added tariffs, shipping, and logistics costs that got passed straight to you. But the real cost driver isn't production—it's the layers. Equity investors and corporate management spend heavily on marketing and advertising. Then there's the payout chains: dividends, acquisition fees, money flowing up through multiple ownership tiers. Every time one of these brands gets bought, prices jump 20 to 30 percent. The result is pricing through the roof for boxes that aren't actually better built. Master Spas is still privately held and made in the U.S., which is why they're priced differently. Watkins and Jacuzzi are marketing machines and accounting exercises, not craftspeople building hot tubs. add to that the goofy proprietary connections on parts designed to take away your right to buy off the shelf parts and lock you into their overpriced dealer eco system and you have the extra burden of higher costs down the road as well...

Yeah its a good tub, master doesn't build anything without the five main things, this is a private line for the biggest seller of spas in the world, this guys dominates the west coast. what price are you seeing?

We're in the same boat, looking at the Legacy enterpise. Any thoughts on that one? Also, would you recommend the salt system? This is going into a home that will have intermittent renters, so we're looking for something that is going to increase maintenance costs.

Sorry i missed this one! For a rental unit the salt is 100% worth it, its easy water care that reliable and thats what you need in a rental did you buy yet?

What review are you referring to?

We update reviews as they get out of reality, often date means nothing, if a line is built the same then what's to say?

which one do you want to know about?

or what is it you want in a hot tub?

Yes fundamentally, this is next gen, 30% lower salt, and on demand... the other systems out there are dumb timer based systems so dosing is not reliant on need, heavy bather loads and you run out of sanitizer, low usage week means chlorine spikes, this system blew us away we beta tested it for a year, amazing...

what tub and price are you getting?

I submitted to your website the two quotes I got for the twilight 8.2 and 7.2. In your opinion, do you feel that the salt water is the way to go with the twilight tub. My biggest concern is corrosion. You see all the stuff everywhere online about corrosion and avoid with hot tub.

Master's salt system is 1,200 ppm. That's less than a third of what the industry was running 15 years ago. Hot Springs and Caldera are both at 1,750 ppm, and Arctic's running 2,200 ppm. Put it in perspective... ocean water is 35,000 ppm, tears are 6,000 ppm. You're talking about water that's gentler than what comes out of your eyes. Why does that matter? Salt corrodes metal. Always has. Lower salinity means less corrosion on your heater, pump internals, fittings, all of it.

But here's the real game changer... it's on-demand with a tester built in. Most salt systems run on a timer and just keep dosing whether you're using the tub or not. You get a week of bad weather, nobody's in the water, but the timer's still dumping chlorine. Now you've got high chlorine levels sitting in stagnant water. That concentration destroys your equipment fast. Electrode degradation, scale buildup, heater failure.

Master's tester sees you're not using it and doesn't dose. Chemical levels stay stable. You use the tub when you use it, the system doses what's needed, and you're not fighting that corrosion nightmare. That's the difference.

These are totally different build quality, Nordic is HDPE plastic, like roto molds but with a lower end fabrication that is a lot less consistent shell thickness. Instinct is a high end acrylic surface with a fully self supporting structure. worth a grand more at the retail level.

Nordic spas upgraded insulation is still miles behind the full foam system on the instinct and the instinct is a lot easier to service with fully removable sides...

Plumbing reliability on instinct is a lot higher with compression shell fittings and glued and clamped plumbing lines.

So I know we can’t see an instinct spa in person to “try” it out. But what brand/style of spa is it closest to in terms of seat layout and stuff?

From a build quality they are master spas, self supporting shells, glued and clamped plumbing, full foam etc etc... from a seating standpoint they are a more contorted shell layout like an LSX or premium leisure, pinnacle or bullfrog A series.

but don't sit in them dry lol, you will fall in and find it hard to get out :-) but when full of water you weigh 15 pounds... you are mostly floating...

You mean Hot Tub universe, been in Halifax for 15 years, they moved the location a few years back... Theresa Shea owns it i can get you good pricing i know her well :-) what tub you looking at?

I was one of the first people to bring hot tubs to Europe in the 80's now most of the brands from the US are there, Master, jacuzzi, are good places to start, be wary most of the stuff over there is cheap Chinese junk. let me know what brands you see around you and ill let you know what they are.

My budget is rather limited I am looking at a price range of 10k to 12k euro. My wife was looking at artesian. I see other brands like silverspas (who claim you can buy directly from the factory), brands like fox spas, venice spas, bullfrog (is out of my price range) bubbelkoning (some sort of housebrand of a larger store chain), legend spa's vogue spa's enjoy spa's. Also Hotspring, Wellis. I found a dealer for master spa's and was looking at the TS 240 model but the dealer is 3 hours away and I am not confident about support.

silver spa, Fox, Venice, Legend, Vogue, Enjoy are all fake manufacturers, they buy cheap tubs, slap labels on them and pretend the are builders... The big ask here is can i go see your factory? where is the factory??? , stay away....

Artesian is solid. Hot springs is real but massive corporate owners goofy proprietary parts and massively overpriced, Bullfrog is ok, the x series is decent but their shells are their weak spot and the shell is the most important expensive part...

Wellis is Hungary, pretty big player and decent.

Ask the master seller for references that are 2-3 hours away or preferably in your area, proximity to the seller matters less than proximity to a service center.

Also go online to Facebook marketplace, google maps and the like, ask them if they will work on the brand you want... warranty does not matter much you can get the part under warranty and the labour in a lot of cases also ask the seller what they charge for a call out under warranty, my big thing would be is it well built, can i get parts, and is there someone around who can work on them.

When that tub was in dealer showrooms it was $11-$12k 30% of the price tag on a hot tub is marketing, sales, branding and dealer showroom costs. When we get them to take it out of showrooms we knocked the 30% off and got it to $8300...

You buy it right from the factory direct they will deliver it and install it then of you ever have need for service you email them and they send a tech, if you ever had problems with that then you hit me up and we will deal with it for you :-)

there are no options every model is the same color, same features delivered and installed with a cover :-)

https://instinctspas.com/

We've got a good seller in Pensacola and they also handle service in your area, which is perfect. I'm going to have Bill reach out because he can get you better pricing than you'll find on your own. We'll point you to that same local seller, but they'll understand you're part of our ecosystem. That means you're covered with my buyer's protection service, which is honestly the best guarantee of service level you can get. If you ever have a problem, that seller knows you're going to reach out to me and I'm going to handle it instead of you. They don't want that conversation happening because I've got thirty million dollars worth of annual purchases and over a hundred thousand hot tub buyers a year coming through my website. Sellers are very careful with my customers. It's kind of like being in protective custody.

Bill's going to reach out with pricing and we'll get you sorted.

Good question on the conduit. Don't pop it up through the bottom of the tub. It's not a great idea putting a hole in the bottom, it's hard to set in place correctly, and it makes the tub a pain to move if you ever need to. In most cases, you've got a side that won't be that visible. Just run the conduit up from the ground behind the tub and loop it into the back. You can run the cable around inside the tub to wherever your control panel is, which is typically directly underneath the touchpad. So look at a top-down picture of the tub where you see the touchpad, and that's where power comes in. But it can enter from any side and just get routed around inside. Way simpler.

On the tubs themselves, both are Master Spas, and both are solid choices. The Twilight series is one of the highest-end therapy tubs in the world. It's loaded with expensive large high-flow therapy massage jets, more than almost any other tub out there. Really well built. Master is the only major player still family owned. Everyone else got bought by equity investors and most moved production to Mexico. Master is the largest builder in the US, been around since the seventies, and they're basically the last major player that told equity investment to pound sand. That makes a huge difference in quality and pricing. Soon as equity gets hold of a company, the price jumps two or three grand and quality usually drops.

For your climate up in Milwaukee, both these tubs are perfect. They both use the most expensive, highest value insulation system available on any hot tub anywhere. They've also got a good heat reclaiming system that captures waste heat from the motors. Best of both worlds. Nothing beats a full foam tub, and they use a specialty foam that makes repairs easy if you ever need them. On the plumbing side, they use compression fittings on the shell, which is the safest and most reliable way to attach jet housings. Then they glue and clamp all the plumbing lines. That's unheard of. Everyone else either clamps or glues, never both. That means your plumbing reliability is going to be rock solid.

The main difference between them comes down to jetting. The Instinct has a nice mix of high-flow and mid-flow jets with good neck and shoulder coverage and some smaller, less expensive jets. That's typical of most tubs. The Twilight is all high-flow therapy massage jets, which drives the cost up. That jetting package alone is probably two to two and a half grand more expensive than the Instinct.

There's also a distribution difference. The Twilight typically comes through a dealer or wholesaler. The Pure Instinct comes factory direct. When that tub was sold in stores, it ran eleven to twelve grand. The reason it's cheaper now is that our traffic volume lets Master remove that thirty percent markup for marketing, branding, and showroom space and sell it factory direct with delivery and installation included. So you're getting a tub that would cost eleven to twelve grand in a showroom for significantly less, and the Twilight doesn't have that factory direct option available.

Bill's going to reach out with pricing options for both. We'll get you sorted.

First thing to clarify: aquatherapy isn't really a thing, but we are talking about two different things here. There's hydrotherapy, which definitely helps with joint issues. The buoyancy, the heat, all that opens up your joints, improves blood flow, flushes toxins, releases natural endorphins. That part works. Then there's massage therapy, which is all about the jet quality and size. Large jets are high-flow therapy massage jets. Small jets are cheap low-flow jets. It matters a lot what size you've got in which areas.

Here's the thing with neck and shoulder work: it's really hard to get right. Most tubs don't do it well. Looking at those two you mentioned, Hot Springs and Caldera are actually the same company, made in Mexico, and corporate owned. They've got very little in the way of actual neck and shoulder jetting. It's mostly those small low-flow jets, which feel amazing during a wet test because they're high pressure, but they push a tiny volume of water. They don't really move muscle mass, so you're not going to get much long-term benefit.

What you actually want is larger jets, three and a half to five inches, high-flow therapy jets positioned up in the neck and shoulder area. That's going to do way more for you. The problem is those two models are massively overpriced because they're corporate owned by Masco. There are so many layers of costs and marketing built in.

Here's why we rank Master Spas so high: they're the last major player that hasn't been bought out by equity investment. Ninety percent of the industry, the big guys and most of the little guys, got acquired and their prices jumped three or four grand instantly while quality usually drops. Master's still independent. The same people have owned it since the seventies. They walk the factory floor. Your money goes into building hot tubs, not into equity investment payouts and dividends. Lower staff turnover, they take care of people. They are also the ONLY major builder doing all of our top 5 things... Heavy grade shells, reliable plumbing systems, good insulation, good parts etc etc

The Twilight is honestly the best therapy tub in the market, especially for neck and shoulder jetting. It's got exactly what you need. We can absolutely get you good pricing on it and cover you with our buyer's protection service so your service levels stay solid down the road.

Bill's going to reach out with some options in your area.

I get it, Caldera looks sharp and the salespeople are good at what they do. But here's what's happening under the hood with the Paradise series. Look at the jet lineup and you'll see only a handful of the large high-flow therapy massage jets that actually do the real work. The rest are cheap low-flow jets that feel good when you're test soaking but don't deliver real muscle therapy. This tub compares to our Clarity line, the Bullfrog X series, or the Instinct models, not the Twilight. You could pick up a comparable tub for nine to eleven grand anywhere. The only reason Caldera charges more is because they're made in Mexico with all the tariff hits and corporate ownership overhead baked in.

Here's the bigger problem: Caldera intentionally engineers everything to be proprietary and incompatible. They do this so you can't get service or parts from anyone except their authorized techs. That costs you significantly more money every time something needs attention, and their parts aren't even better than standard industry stuff. It's designed to lock you in for life so you don't have options. That's a lot of friction down the road.

The Twilight is miles ahead on the jet package. You're getting actual therapy jets in the right places. Plus you escape the proprietary ecosystem entirely. Standard parts, standard service, way more freedom.

The distance thing isn't actually a problem. We can get pricing on any hot tub in the US and connect you with dealers wherever makes sense. More importantly, we cover you with buyer's protection. That means even if your dealer's an hour away, they know you're backed by Hot Tub University and our protection service. About seventy percent of everyone buying a hot tub in North America comes through this website. Dealers know that. They know if they don't take care of you, I'm going to know about it and say so publicly to a massive audience. That's huge motivation for them to make sure you're happy. You end up with better service and usually better pricing too.

Bill's going to reach out with some solid options for you.

Nothing is higher r value or better efficiency that a good full foam tub, its around $500 more expensive but well worth the money over the long haul, you still reclaim the motor heat very well but you have 3 or 4 times the r value. you have to be sure its the specialty foam because if they use HD stuff like some cheaper tubs do to support a cheap shell then you have a nightmare if you have a plumbing failure. Arctic has a good shell, but everything else is cut corner cheap, they use a low end jet system from rising dragon (they private label it to hide it) and low cost perimeter insulation, and they just glue the plumbing with no clamps :-( Beachcomber is better but stay away from the Hybrid system, its dumb outdated tech, also the jetting is low end. Master is one of the top ones,

what's the budget?

Thanks. Hoping to stay around $15k CDN

let me get bill to take a look and see what he can find locally for you. will email.

Everybody always has these coupons :-) We can do better ill get bill to reach out on email.

Twilight 7.2 interested

Ill get bill to reach out.

For tall people, you're actually looking at two different approaches that both work well. You've got either a big footwell or molded seating. Here's the thing with molded seating: you sink deeper into the water and get more of a bucket seat situation. Most of your leg ends up in the seat itself, so you don't need as much footwell. Tall people tend to really prefer aggressive molded seating because you end up deeper in the water overall.

With big footwells, you're looking at bench seating that's only about fifteen inches wide. Your butt's on the seat and your whole leg and knees are hanging into the footwell. That's fine for a lot of people and definitely has its place, but it's not necessarily the sweet spot for taller folks.

Now, on your specific models: The Master Spa Precision 8 is a great tub at a great price. It uses EcoPure instead of Mineral FROG, but they're basically identical systems. And honestly, FROG systems can be added to any hot tub, so it's not something that has to be built in from the factory. That 10,900 price is actually one of the better ones I've seen on the Precision 8.

You might also want to take a look at Master Spa's Instinct models. They're factory direct, so the pricing is really good, and they've got the more aggressively molded seating you're looking for as a tall person.

The Jacuzzi J285 at 11,900 is nowhere near the Precision 8. Jacuzzi builds them in Mexico now, which means tariffs, and they're corporate equity owned, so the pricing is inflated. The J285 cuts corners everywhere: insulation, frames. I've even seen steel frames on some of them. If you could get a J385 down to about 12K, that would be in the ballpark. But that J285, I wouldn't touch it personally.

The Vita Grand 300 is one of those goofy ones. I'm not a real big fan. You're looking at cheap steel frames, cheap perimeter installation systems, no clamps on the plumbing. They build a decent shell, but it's not top tier.

I'll h

Eastern Iowa's got decent service for most major brands, which is good news. Not too many brands actually hit all five quality markers. Most do three or four. Let me walk you through what you're looking at.

Caldera is owned by this massive corporation called Mascow. Big marketing spend, made in Mexico, so tariffs hit hard. That's the real issue with corporate and equity owned brands these days. They've got all these layers of payouts and dividends that drive the price up three grand or more right off the bat. Caldera's not a bad tub, don't get me wrong, but it's all proprietary connections and parts. Even the power supply is different from every other brand. That locks you into their expensive dealer ecosystem forever when something breaks down the road. You're paying for the marketing and branding, not necessarily better quality.

Artesian is the only one of that group actually made in the US, so you'll save money just on tariffs right there. They use a standard parts list for the most part, which is good. The downside is they got acquired by an equity investor too, so prices went up. They glue their plumbing lines but don't clamp them. Now clamping and gluing together is really the gold standard. If you can find someone doing both, that's huge.

Sundance is also equity owned, and they've moved all production to Mexico, so again, tariffs and the same proprietary connection lock-in as Caldera. They clamp but don't glue, which is backwards from Artesian. Out of those three, if the price was right, Artesian would probably be your best bet.

Here's what I'd really recommend though: Instinct Spas, made by Master Spa. Master Spa is the largest hot tub builder in the US and one of the oldest. They haven't been acquired by equity investment like everyone else, and they're actually bigger than most of the other American brands out there. Factory direct means you're cutting layers of middlemen out of the equation. The real key thing is all the parts on those tubs are standard North American OEM parts. You can get them on Amazon or dozens of other places for next day delivery. No proprietary nonsense, no connection lock-in. That matters a lot for long term repairability and maintenance. Every line is glued and clamped. For what you're looking for, quality and low maintenance over years, that's probably your best bet.

Now the pricing picture depends on your budget. We can get you into a quality tub anywhere from under nine grand up to twenty grand, so I need to know what you're comfortable spending.

Bill's going to reach out with some specific options in your area and get you hooked up with local dealers. Here's how we work: we make the introduction, which lets them know you're not coming in blind. It protects you because we cover our buyers with our protection service, and dealers know that. If you end up unhappy with the service down the road, you reach out to us, we reach out to them. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of that kind of attention with a business like ours getting a lot of traffic. So that's a solid layer of protection for you. Let's get your budget sorted and find you something that fits.

Awesome! We'd appreciate solid leads for where to buy here in Eastern Iowa and where to get subsequent service.

Since we're newbies, we aren't sure how much to spend on a 6 person tub. Since you recommend Instinct Spas, where should we go to see tubs in person? We don't understand the wide cost variance between a $10k and $20k model. What options are worth it? What's the best sweet spot for bang for the buck?

Okay, so first thing about Instinct: it's only available at 8,600 bucks because it's factory direct, not in stores. When that same tub is sold through dealers in showrooms, it's called the Healthy Living Series and it goes for 11 to 12 grand. Here's why we got it down to 8,600. We convinced the manufacturer to cut out all the marketing, advertising, brochures, and showroom space. That stuff is thirty percent of what you pay for any hot tub. Every single tub you look at has thirty percent of its price baked in just to get it in front of customers. You can't sell hot tubs if nobody knows they exist.

Hot Tub University has this unique position of getting 120,000 customers a year coming to look. That let us negotiate to remove that thirty percent markup and have them sell factory direct while still delivering and installing it. So no, you can't see an Instinct in person. And if you could, it would cost 11 to 12 grand. When you go shopping around, anything you see will compare to the 11 to 12 grand price point because everything out there has that thirty percent markup built in.

Between 10 and 20 grand is where things get messy. A lot of it is just gimmicks, bells and whistles, or you're paying for the name brand. Corporate-owned brands like Jacuzzi or Hot Springs, the price instantly jumps up three or four grand just because they're equity-owned. That's coming from layered corporate costs, dividends, payouts, and heavy marketing spend. Some of the real cost drivers are things like jet size. Large high-flow therapy massage jets cost way more than the cheap little jets. But a lot of the options are just fluff. It's really tricky to know which ones are actually worth paying for.

Most of the chemical reduction systems are oversold and not worth their money, with a few exceptions. The real sweet spot depends on what you want out of massage therapy. If you just want a solid basic tub with good jetting, Instinct at 8,600 is going to beat anything you see in that 12 grand range. If you want something with serious high-flow therapy massage jetting, then you're looking at something like the Twilight series around 14 to 15 grand, or a Jacuzzi 345, or Artesian Elites. Those are going to give you a better massage package overall.

Bill's going to reach out with some leads on where to buy and service in your area. We know the dealers and they know we've got your back with our protection service, which means they'll take care of you right.

Hi Bill,
Thanks for all of your help! Based on your recommendation, we're hoping to order the Master Spa Pure Instinct hot tub soon. We'd love an introduction from you to recommended local area dealers to coordinate delivery and service in the Cedar Rapids/Coralville/Iowa City area in Iowa.

Let us know when you're available to help us get set up. We very much appreciate your help!

Bill will reach out on email :-) Happy hot tubbing.

**Q: I'm looking to buy my first hot tub. I'm currently considering the Platinum Spas Reim model and AquaPure Cypress. Do you have any advice on either of these brands or alternatives?**

**A:** Both of those companies are what we call virtual manufacturers or rebranders. They're not actually building hot tubs. What they do is buy containers of hot tubs out of China, usually mid-quality at best, then they redo the marketing, brochures, and branding and pretend they're the manufacturer. It's super common in the market right now, but it's not a good deal for you as an end user.

Here's how it works: a tub that costs three and a half to four grand to make in China gets marked up when they buy it. Dealers are buying from them at six or seven grand. Then when the dealer sells it to you, you're paying eight, nine, or ten. You're getting a four thousand dollar tub but paying double or more for all the middleman branding and markup.

There's way better options in the marketplace. Stick with a US builder if you can. You're going to save a lot of money just cutting out all that branding nonsense. A quality US-made tub is going to hold up better and give you better support down the road.

What's your budget looking like, and what kind of prices did you get quoted on those two? I'm pretty sure we can find you better deals through local sellers in your area. Once we make the introduction, they'll know you're coming through our system, which means they know you're covered with our buyer's protection. That matters to them because they know if anything goes sideways with service or support, you're calling me and I'm calling them. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of that situation.

Bill's going to reach out with some options. Give me an idea of what you're comfortable spending and we'll see what we can dig up for you.

Yeah, I'm familiar with Catalina. Back in the day they were a good family-run business with solid tubs. They were actually on our recommended brand list. But then they got acquired by LPI Industries, which is just a big corporate marketing machine. Lots of advertising and branding spend. When that happened, the quality went down.

Right now I wouldn't really be looking for or recommending them. You're looking at cheaper shells, lower end perimeter installation systems, and no clamps on the plumbing lines. Those are three big red flags right there. So unless the price was really, really good, it's not worth it.

What's your budget looking like and what size tub are you in the market for? Give me an idea and I'll have Bill reach out with some better options in your local market. We can probably find you something with better quality at a better price.

Thanks for responding. We are looking 4-6 person hut tubs, with a budget around 14k. We have wet tested a Bullfrog spa, and seen Sundance spas in a showroom. We have plans to look at Jacuzzi and Twilight and are currently leaning toward Sundance-loved the fit and matte finish. We live in NH, 03608.

Okay, so you're in serious territory now. Bullfrog, Sundance, Jacuzzi, and Twilight are all solid tubs, but I'd rank the Bullfrog as the weakest of that bunch. Their jetpacks are gimmicky and problematic. Since they were first designed, it's been one issue after another with band aids on top of band aids. The problem is the packs limit where you can put jets and they're not efficient flow-wise. They save money by not using much pipe, which means all the water gets compressed into smaller pipes traveling longer distances. That kills your flow rates. They're equity-owned, which hits pricing, and the shell is weaker with gimmicky features. I wouldn't put it on my final list. If you did want to go Bullfrog, the X series is the only line I'd recommend. One more thing: cleaning those jetpacks twice a year is a nightmare. Look it up. They tend to get mold and allergy growth behind the packs because there's not enough filtration and sanitation back there.

Sundance and Jacuzzi are actually the same company made in the same factory in Mexico. They're a mixed bag. Production quality is solid, but they're owned by Invest Industrial, a big equity house with about ten brands. That ownership and the tariffs on Mexico adds three or four grand to the price even though it's not justified. It's all those layers of payouts and heavy marketing spend. They intentionally make things slightly noncompliant so you can't buy parts off the shelf. They control your parts, your service, and your distribution. Independent techs won't touch them because getting parts is deliberately difficult and they're not used to dealing with proprietary systems. That locks you into the dealer ecosystem by design. Build quality is still pretty good, but we're starting to see some creep, which is typical with equity. They're cutting corners on framing, starting to use steel frames on some lines. Steel is cheap but it's noisy, has terrible thermal properties, and it leaks heat. They're probably still clinging to a top five spot, but the trajectory is downward.

Now Twilight, which is Master Spas, is the beauty queen. Simple reason: they do everything the top builders do and they do it without the equity investment markup. They build hand-rolled, self-supported shells. They use the same Balboa heating and control system as Jacuzzi and Sundance on several models, except they haven't loaded them up with proprietary connections. You can buy off-shelf parts, which is huge for you down the road. Master glues and clamps their plumbing lines. Jacuzzi only does one or the other. That's rare and better for reliability. Here's the kicker: Master is the only major player still privately held. Everything else you're looking at is equity-owned. That private ownership saves you about four grand right there.

Look at the jet package on the Twilight and it blows everything else you're looking at out of the water. When it comes to therapy massage, size is everything. Large jets cost ten times more than small jets and flow way more water. Those are real high-flow therapy massage jets. The Twilight's jet package is easily two grand more expensive than anything else on your list. Master is privately held with owners who still walk the factory floor. Same people who've owned it since the eighties. They're the largest builder in the US and one of the oldest, been around since the seventies. No debt. They've built a cleaner business model that doesn't rely as heavily on expensive dealer ecosystems. A lot of their stuff flows through wholesalers. They also put service centers around most everywhere, and you're definitely covered in your area.

On pricing, we can work with any of the dealers you're looking at. When we make the introduction, they'll know we're part of it and they'll know you've got our buyer's protection backing you up. If anything ever goes sideways down the road, instead of you going one-on-one with a dealer, they know I'm getting involved. I'm going to have thirty million dollars worth of annual purchases behind that conversation. It moves faster, it's cleaner, and it's a lot more honest. Nobody's going to pull anything when I'm at the table. Not that you'll need it, but it's nice insurance if things ever get complicated.

Bill's going to reach out with some solid options for pricing in your area. We'll get you sorted.

Hi, I"ve submitted price checks twice, but never gotten a reply. What does this mean? I've also reached out to Bill directly, who responded at first, talking about "hopping on a call", but I never heard from him again. The information I have gotten has been very useful, but I can't figure out why I no longer get any response. We are definitely interested in a hot tub, but haven't committed to buying one yet. Knowing if the quotes we have gotten are any good would definitely help us decide whether or not to buy one.

bill had some medical issues recently he is back in the game and ill get him to reach out

Thank you. Sorry to hear about Bill, I hope he’s feeling better.

Cal Spa is a US builder, which is one good thing. They're made in California, so you're avoiding a lot of the tariff hits you'd get with Mexican or Canadian made brands in the current environment.

On the insulation side, they've got two options. Their standard perimeter system isn't really the gold standard for cold climates, I'll be honest with you. But they do offer an upgrade to a full foam package with a good open-cell foam product. If you're in a cold environment like Minnesota, you definitely want to be buying that upgrade. It's usually around a five hundred dollar add-on, but it makes a real difference.

What kind of price are you seeing on this tub and what's your budget? There's probably options just as good or better in your area. Give me those numbers and I'll have Bill reach out. He knows the suppliers up there and can get you some pricing directly from the same dealers, usually better than what you're getting quoted now.

The main thing though is we'll cover you with our buyer's protection. We make the introduction so the seller knows you're not coming in alone. They know you've got backup, and they also know if they don't take care of you right, you're calling me and I'm calling them. That's part of the deal with my protection service, and dealers take that seriously. So you're in good hands.

Coast Spas is out of Canada, which is good because you're avoiding tariff hits being in Canada yourself. But here's the thing with Coast Spas: they had a decent track record pre-COVID, but post-COVID everything started falling apart. That 2022 tub was right in that window when things crashed and burned. Since then they've retooled, but they're building cheaper shells now.

That particular tub probably has high density foam, which is used to prop up cheaper shells but it is going to make any repairs very difficult. Here's the bigger issue though: a slow leak now is a red flag. When a tub starts leaking, you fix one leak and then you chase leaks forever. It never really ends. Coast doesn't clamp their plumbing lines, so that could be your culprit. They're probably still using the old two-part jet housings too, which can become a headache down the road.

The real question is how much are they asking for it? That's what matters here. I can dig through your local used market and probably find you better tubs. Give me the price they quoted and your budget, and I can give you a better answer on whether this one's worth it or if there's something better out there.

Harmonic is made in the US, which is good. You're going to save some money on tariffs. The downside is they're a very small operation, and that's a real problem in this industry right now.

The industry's been acquired by equity investment and consolidation. You've got these huge companies now like Master Spas, Invest Industrial, and Mascow Corporation. Between them they probably control sixty percent of the industry. These guys have massive purchasing power and economy of scale. What that means is smaller builders just can't compete. They end up having to cut corners to survive.

With Harmonic you're looking at a cheaper cradle-supported shell, a basic perimeter installation system, and no clamps on the plumbing. Unless they're really cheap, it's probably not the sweet spot. And honestly, even if they are really cheap, it's probably still not worth it.

What model are they offering and what kind of pricing are you seeing? What's your budget? Give me those details and I can point you toward something that's going to give you better value and fewer headaches down the road.

$11,500 for H277B total. The sales person stated the plumbing is glued and clamped. I’m interested in the buyers service.

you can get top name brands for this price with better shells, plumbing and insulation...

Ill get bill to email you with some local options.

Hydropool used to be Canadian owned, but it's not anymore. It's owned by an equity investor called Invest Industrial. They own a bunch of brands like Jacuzzi and Sundance, which are decent products. Hydropool is their poor cousin. It's not in that quality tier at all.

That insulation system they're talking about isn't innovative. It's cheap Mylar. Mylar is used in hot climates to reflect heat away from surfaces because it's good at reflecting radiant heat. The problem is it has no thermal mass, so it's terrible at retaining heat in a system. That's the exact opposite of what you want in a hot tub, especially in Vermont. The marketing is fantastic because equity-owned brands throw money at marketing, and that gets reflected in the price.

The plastic floor is nice, but it's available on any hot tub. It's not a unique feature. What you're really getting with Hydropool is a thinner cradle-supported shell and the absolute cheapest build quality and insulation you can buy.

Master Spas is fully foamed, but it's open cell foam, not high density. That's the key difference. Don't confuse high density foam with open cell. High density foam is a nightmare to service because it encapsulates everything. Open cell foam is the opposite. If you have a leak in an open cell system, you touch the foam, find the wet spot, pull the foam out with your fingers, find the leak in the middle, repair it, and reshape the foam. It's not hard at all. And Master also offers a full ABS bottom pan if that rodent issue matters to you.

On the jets, the Twilight 7.25 and the 6800 are very different animals. The Twilight has a lot of expensive large high-flow therapy jets. The cheaper tubs load up on small jets that cost a tenth as much. They make the brochure numbers look good, but they do almost nothing for actual massage therapy. Good therapy tubs have fewer jets but way more expensive and effective packages overall.

Here's the thing though: you're in Vermont. That Hydropool is going to get hit with a massive tariff because it's coming from Canada. That's going to drive the price way up, way above where it should be.

What kind of pricing are you seeing on both of these? That's going to help me give you a better read. In the meantime, I'll have Bill reach out. We know the sellers in that market and can negotiate better pricing for you. When we introduce you, they know you're coming through Hot Tub University and that our buyer's protection service is part of the deal. That means if you ever have a service problem, you're calling us and we're calling them. They don't want that attention because we get a lot of traffic. So they're going to be way more careful taking care of you down the road. You usually end up with better pricing too, and it doesn't cost you anything to use that service.

Spa Manufacturer is based in Florida, which is good. You'll avoid tariff hits. That's where the goodness ends though.

You're looking at a cheaper cradle-supported shell, no clamps on the plumbing, and a cheap perimeter insulation system. In a Florida marketplace you're not really worried about insulation anyway, so that's not your issue. The real problem is reliability. These guys don't have a great reputation. Lots of complaints and negative feedback from clients.

Here's something else to know about reviews: you really can't trust most of them. They're not vetted and they're not third party, so there's a ton of fake reviews out there. This is industry-wide. Unless you're looking at vetted third-party reviews where the buyer actually proved they own a hot tub from that manufacturer, you've got to take most of what you read with a grain of salt. Especially the positive reviews.

Negative reviews are a bit more trustworthy, but even those get polluted with fake reviews from competitors sometimes. The review market is basically pay-to-play at this point.

What's your budget and what model were you looking at? What kind of pricing are you seeing? That'll help me give you a better picture of whether this is worth pursuing or if there's something better out there.

I was looking at the 800WF, which is 10k. I can go higher.
I want reliably, good jets. Low maintenance.
I would like local place that does installation, repair and maintenance.

No way, even if it was a top build which it is not, its would still be worth around $10k retail, factory direct sub $8 k look at the jets! its all the small cheap low flow jets and a few of the mid flows...

compare that to an instinct, artesian south seas, hell even a call spa and you have better bang for the buck.

Ill get bill to reach out with better local deals... and we will cover you with our buyers protection service, if anyone drops the ball instead of a one on one battle you hit me up and ill have the fight for you :-)

Here's your answer, in your voice:

---

Hey Tim, glad you reached out. So on the Master Spa units, your best move is to let us do the shopping for you. We'll get you connected with local dealers who know what's up, and here's the thing: once they know you're coming through us and you're under my buyer protection, they're gonna take care of you because the last thing they want is me on the phone with them. Trust me, that's effective. We buy thousands of these every year, and nobody in the industry wants to be on the bad side of the volume we move. You'll get better pricing this way than going direct, and you won't have to chase anybody down if something goes sideways. Bill's gonna reach out to you with options and what you're looking at price-wise for both the 7.2 and 8.2.

On the electrical side, here's what you need to know for the conduit. For a 50-amp circuit with 6 AWG copper wire, you're gonna run 3/4 inch EMT or Schedule 40 PVC. Three quarter inch will pass inspection and meets code per the NEC tables. You get about 30 percent fill, which is plenty of headroom under the 40 percent max.

As for location, running it under the patio is fine as long as the conduit is properly buried and protected. The power needs to be accessible from the tub, obviously, but sub-grade is standard practice. Just make sure whoever's doing the rough in knows they need the conduit in place before the concrete goes down. Get that locked in during the patio build and you're golden.

Thanks, was hopeful you guys would be able to help. Look forward to getting a Master Spa picked out and ordered soon.

Hey John, good question. So PDC, they build out of Pennsylvania, solid builder overall. Their installation system's not the best, it's more of a budget perimeter setup, but they do good shells and the plumbing's solid. The thing about PVC spas though is their jet packages are pretty weak. They go cheap on the large high flow therapy jets and load you up with smaller low flow jets instead. That's not what you want if jet pressure matters to you.

Bullfrog is still made in Utah, which is good news, keeps you away from tariff issues. But here's the thing that changed recently: they got picked up by an equity investor. And that's when your costs go up. Equity owned companies have all kinds of layers of payouts, dividends, shareholders, marketing spend, and you're looking at typically two to three grand more per unit than you should be paying. So yeah, prices went up.

Now the x7 specifically. Its weakness is the shell. It's a thinner cradle supported shell, and that's the problem. Your Denali lasted 18 years for a reason: it's got a heavy grade self supporting shell. That's the most important and most expensive part of the tub, and it's critical. The x7 cuts corners there.

What are you seeing for pricing on that Bullfrog? It should be right around ten, eleven grand. We can find you better tubs in that price range, honestly in any price range. Not sure where you're located, so if you give me your area and what your budget is, I can probably dig up some solid options that'll give you better jet pressure and better insulation without the equity markup.

re than the cold itself. Get it blocked from wind and you're solid.

One more thing: if you can run 60 amp service instead of 50, put the unit in high current mode and the heater stays on even when the jets are firing. That's huge for maintaining temperature in winter. Changes everything.

Hey Mohamed,

Good question. Beachcomber makes a decent tub, but the Costco version has some real problems you need to know about before dropping that money.

The biggest issue is the skirt. It's non-removable on their Costco model, and that's a nightmare waiting to happen. When these things leak down the road, you're stuck. You can't get to anything. It's costly to fix and honestly just a pain. Beachcomber knows this but they do it to cut costs for that price point.

Here's the other thing nobody talks about. Beachcomber plays games with their jet count. When they say 67 jets, they're counting every single hole in every jet. That's their trick. In reality you're looking at maybe 20 actual jets. It's marketing BS and they're the only company that really does this aggressively. It's not honest.

So yeah, you're getting a lower price but you're also getting a model with fewer real features and more future headaches. It might feel like a deal sitting at Costco but once you factor in the skirt issue and everything else, it's overpriced for what you're actually getting.

If you want to stay in that ballpark, there are better options out there that won't leave you dealing with nightmare repairs a few years down the road.

what price is this tub and do you have a link for it? i cant find it on their website...

David,

Good questions. Let me be straight with you on both.

Master Spa and Jacuzzi are solid, but they're playing different games right now. Jacuzzi is vertically integrated, but here's the real issue. They're made in Mexico now and owned by an equity investment group. When equity takes over, you know what happens: prices go up. We're talking $2-3k more just on the equity tax, plus Mexican tariffs are hitting hard right now. You're probably paying $3-4k more for a comparable Jacuzzi, and frankly, they don't glue and clamp anymore. Just clamp.

Master Spas? Privately held. Last big player standing against equity. They still glue and clamp, which costs more to build but holds better long-term. Similar parts, similar construction overall, but the difference is in the business model.

Here's the kicker with Jacuzzi. Proprietary parts game. They've intentionally redesigned how boards mount, how connectors plug in, so you can't buy the generic Balboa heating system everyone else uses. You gotta buy the Jacuzzi version. Exact same thing, twice the price. Locks you into their dealer ecosystem. Master doesn't play that.

On budget, $20k is huge honestly. You can get really well-made stuff starting at $9k. No reason to spend all of it unless you want to.

I'm gonna have Bill reach out with solid pricing on all the brands you're looking at, plus a couple outliers like Artesian. We'll get you real numbers for your area.

Chris

Thank you for the reply and I look forward to hearing from Bill on pricing and other brand options. Yea I thought 20k was likely more than we'd need to spend but really want to get a quality spa. Also let me know on the leaving the spa in the summer question and do we drain or leave filled and have someone maintain. Thank you.

Definitely leave it full, turn the temp down and get someone to check every month and sanitize, if you go with the salt system it will take care of itself while you are gone...

Hey Aneta,

Good to hear from you again. Great timing asking before winter hits.

So here's the straight answer: the Master Spa LSX900 is going to be your best bet of the three you mentioned. It checks all five boxes, which honestly not many tubs do at that size. For a 7-10 person tub, you're getting a solid self-supporting shell, properly glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam insulation, and actual OEM parts availability. That matters when you need service down the road in Collingwood.

Let me give you the quick rundown on the other two:

The Bullfrog M Series sounds good on paper, but their shells are cradle supported (not self-supporting) and they've been having real issues with their jet packs. We're talking mold and bacteria problems that keep coming back. Plus they got bought out by an equity group a couple years ago and prices shot up accordingly. Performance honestly hasn't matched that.

Arctic Spas Summit XL cuts corners in places that matter. Cheaper insulation, they only glue the plumbing no clamps, and a lot of their parts are cheap Chinese made stuff rebranded under their own names. You'll end up dealing with more repairs than you want.

Beachcomber is actually a solid alternative if you want another option to explore, but they still don't hit all five like Master Spa does.

Since you're keeping your info private until you decide, that's smart. Once you're ready to move forward with Master Spa, you'll want to reach out to a dealer. I know you said you wanted to avoid that step, but honestly it's worth talking to someone who can handle the installation and warranty stuff properly, especially up there in Collingwood.

Ill get Bill to reach out to you he knows all the players around there.

What is a reasonable price for the MasterSpa LSX900? Will Bill help with that? Thank you kindly,

Bill will find the right prices for you on any brand :-)

Hi Jon,

Good question, and I appreciate you doing your homework on the AV-8. Let me give you some real talk about Aquavoss.

Here's the thing — and this is pretty common in our industry right now. Aquavoss is essentially a rebranding operation. Two guys who used to refurbish tubs now import stock models (mostly from China), slap their name on them, and market them as their own "manufacturing." You end up with a $3,500 base tub that goes through multiple middlemen from factory to importer who rebrands it and makes it look like the make it, then to a dealer, and then you, before it lands in your backyard. By the time it reaches you, you're probably looking at 2-3x that original cost.

Now, that said you're right about the Balboa pack. That's solid; it's an industry standard and means parts and service are accessible. Simple is good, and I get the appeal of avoiding proprietary BS.

But before you decide, I need a few specifics:

What price are they quoting you? That'll tell us a lot about the markup game they're playing.

Also, i tried to dig into the specs and its a low end cradle-supported shell. The plumbing and insulation again lower end and a cheap Steel frame. These aren't design features to be proud of, they're cost-cutting staples on entry-level rebranded tubs.

The black model looks clean, I get it. But make sure you're not paying premium dollars for a standard import with a fresh coat of paint and a logo.

Want to send me the specs and pricing? I can give you an honest breakdown.

Cheers

$10,500 for the black one delivered. 5 yr shell/frame warranty and 2 years everything else. The only other spas I'd want are the Stil 7 or Jacuzzi j-408 which are both twice the money and overly featured for my taste. I like that the Aquavoss isn't complicated-its a tub with bench seating, hot water and jets. It reminds me of the Aquatica and Casa Blui spa designs-simple, bench seating, hot water and jets. I'm sure those are of much better quality than the Aquavoss but again at twice the cost. I know you usually get what you pay for but l wonder if another 10k is actually worth it..

you can buy it direct from China through Alibaba for $3500 lol and the warranty is 2 years on parts and 5 years only on the structure of the shell, no surface warranty for delam etc and no leak warranty

You want solid bang for the buck simple and reliable get the instinct spa, best tub on the market sub $10k at $8500 for a self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, full foam insulation compression fittings and top end parts you can get anywhere its untouchable,

Quick question...did you find the exact same spa on Alibaba? lf so, can you share the link because I'm curious?
Thx,
Jon

you wont find an identical one because the factory will usually modify the look slightly for the buyers if you are getting container loads but there are loads of similar units.

likely suspects:

Guangzhou Royal Sanitary Ware Co., Ltd. — 20+ years, 35,000 sqm factory
Royal SPA
Sunrans Group — 15+ years, 90,000+ sqm capacity, 5,000 units/month output
SUNRANS
JOYEE — 20+ years, 50,000m² facility, 200+ professionals, selling to 120+ countries
JOYEE Hot Tub
JZJ Spas — 15+ years, ISO9001 certified, ETL/CE marked

Alright, so for Edmonton you absolutely need full foam insulation. That's non-negotiable in that climate. But here's the thing - forget all that nonsense about it being difficult to repair. That's old news. The heavy duty high density foams from back in the day? Yeah those harden up like a rock and become a nightmare. That's not what you're dealing with in the newer tubs.

Beachcomber makes some really well-made stuff with open-celled foam. You get way better insulation than a perimeter system, you're recapturing the heat from your motors so you're not just throwing that away, and if you get a leak it's stupid easy to fix. Literally pull it out with your hands. Find the wet spot, pull the foam, repair the leak which is right in the middle of that wet spot, throw the foam back in. Done.

But here's where you gotta be careful with Beachcomber - on their cheaper models, especially the ones through places like Costco, the skirts are non-removable. And that's an absolute nightmare. If you ever get a leak, the tub has to be elevated, the base comes off, and now you're trying to find and repair something when you can't even get to it properly. Half the time you end up having to cut holes in the side of the skirt or drag it to a repair center. And that's not covered under warranty. It can turn into a real headache fast. So make sure whatever you're looking at has a removable skirt.

Master Spas and the really premium Beachcomber lines do this right - full foam, removable everything. Most expensive system on the market but absolutely worth it for a cold climate.

Now Bullfrog. Look, they're okay but here's where I have a problem. Their Comm series is low end, and Bullfrog has these cheap cradle supported shells. You'll see complaints online all day long about shell failures. That's the most important part of the whole tub and the most expensive part. That's absolutely not where you want to see corners cut. The Comm series especially just keeps getting worse.

Real talk - at 11 grand Canadian you cannot build a good hot tub and sell it to regular people. That's just the math. Unless you want to bump that budget up, used is genuinely your play here. Yeah they're gonna cost you, but the performance and reliability you get is way better.

This is good but its worth around $4k max https://www.facebook.com/share/1Ea6mWqVne/

good as well worth $6k https://www.facebook.com/share/1Er23VWEGn/

This is a great deal... https://www.facebook.com/share/1CsUvtvrrK/

good tub worth $6k https://www.facebook.com/share/1dv1GFgioQ/

Best one its worth $8700 https://www.facebook.com/share/1CFYWCoDQw/

Thanks for the quick reply on this, it is appreciated.
In response to the beachcomber items. Do you know if the hybrid 578 has removable side panels? You mention the hybrid system isn’t great either in previous posts about beachcomber. Would that be an issue in a tub that is 14 years old?

Not sure, they did start recently to put removable skirts on the higher end models, but you need to confirm with the seller.

Yes you are correct Im not a huge fan of the Hybrid system, especially if your area is prone to power outages, but overall its is a pretty solid tub even with these flaws.

cant find much on them, ask what the insualtion is, also ask if they clamp the plumbing lines from the manifold to the jets.

That's a tough one, its a 3 year warranty but they don't cave without substantial weight on them like uncleared snow? what happened to it?

Thanks for your reply. We never had too much snow but Rain would collect in the folds and we had to use a blower to push off. Now it is very loose. And when trying to roll the integrity is reduced and keep folding instead of rolling. I can send pictures if helpful

So its less than 3 years old? what grounds did they refuse the warranty?

They keep asking for more pictures with all the clips closed. Which we did. And then their last email said: “the factory said we should open the cover and pull the straps from the inside to make the cover more taught so it does not collect water.” I don’t even know who is supposed to do that. They basically keep giving us excuses and run around.

who is the seller? also did you report the issue before the end of the warranty? try going around the seller and hit up the factory directly....

I lived there for decades and know all the sellers, Ill get bill to reach out and get you some solutions we can get you better pricing through the local sellers and ensure a higher level of service under our Buyers protection service. What's the budget and specs you want?

I think between 10K and 15K? Maybe more if that's not realistic... but if I can get something good towards the 10K side, that would be great! 6-person (which feels nice for 4; I'm thinking - the seats sort of assume you're leg touching the person next to you, which isn't exactly what I'd want. I'd like it to be roomy for 4 people, and most of the time it'll be 2). I'm ready to be educated on all the other specs - I feel I need to go somewhere and look at different tubs.

Bill will reach out if he hasn't already, when you shop keep your personal details out of the mix... we can get you better pricing if we can introduce you to the seller as a new customer (not already in their database)

Thank you! That is intriguing information about keeping personal details close. I look forward to hearing from Bill. I also think I need to revise my budget upwards and I wonder what the point of diminishing returns is cost-wise for a hot tub...

depends on the jetting package but honestly a lot of it is overpriced right now margins are up massively for builders that are equity or corporate owned.

John,

Yeah, Artesian makes a solid tub. In my opinion they're definitely up there in the top five. They're made in Las Vegas and they've been around, so you're not buying from some fly-by-night operation.

They did get acquired by an equity investment firm a while back, which is the same story we see over and over. Prices went up a couple grand when that happened. That's just what happens when equity gets involved. More layers of management, more marketing spend, dividend payouts to investors, all that stuff that has nothing to do with making a better hot tub but definitely impacts your wallet.

One thing that changed with them is they switched to glue-only plumbing lines instead of using both glue and clamps. Some manufacturers go glue only, some go clamp only, but the gold standard in this industry is doing both. Glue and clamp together. It's just more robust. That said, it's not a deal breaker with Artesian, it's just worth knowing.

Other than that, there's not a lot to complain about. Good shells, good frames, good insulation, solid parts throughout. They're right up there with Master Spas, Jacuzzi, all the other top tier brands. If you've done your homework and the Island Grand Cayman Elite checks your boxes, you're looking at a quality unit.

Just make sure you're getting a fair price from the dealer which model are you looking at and what pricing are you seeing?

Jenna,

Okay, so for Ottawa winters you're looking at the right things. A good self-supporting shell and a full foam insulation package is critical. That's non-negotiable if you're going to keep this thing running through a Canadian winter.

Let's break down what you're looking at.

Bullfrog S180XD. The problem here is they use a low-end cradle-supported shell. Other than that, they're not bad. Full foam insulation, they glue and clamp the plumbing lines, parts are generally pretty good. But there's a lot of chatter on the internet about shell failures with these guys. And when you're talking about a big unit like a swim spa, I'd be leery about putting them on my top list. Also, Bullfrog is made in the US, so tariffs are going to hit their pricing pretty hard, which is something to factor in.

Arctic Spa Ocean Legend. These guys are Canadian made, and they build great shells. That's actually a real strength. But the insulation system is perimeter only, not full foam. No clamps on the plumbing lines either, just glue. And the parts are the cheapest you can get. They're using rising dragon jets out of China but private labeling them so people think it's some different brand. I'm not going to say it's a nightmare brand, but if the price is right, it's probably the best value of what you're looking at. Just don't expect a legacy brand.

Hydropool 14AX Sport. This is the one I'd avoid. Hydropool is part of the Jacuzzi group, but they're like the poor cousin. Thinner cradle-supported shells, really low-end insulation system, honestly one of the worst in the industry. Lots of spin marketing, but it's just mid-low end stuff. They're owned by Invest Industrial Group, same people who own Jacuzzi and Sundance. If you were going to go with that company, you'd be way better off stepping up to Jacuzzi. I wouldn't put my money on a Hydropool.

For Ottawa winters, you need that full foam insulation and a solid shell. Of your three options, Arctic Spa is probably your best bet if the price works, but Bullfrog would be second if you can get past the shell concerns. Skip the Hydropool.

What pricing have you gotten? what features do you like and what budget are you trying to hit?

I can get bill to reach out he's my guy in Canada and knows that market and can get you better pricing through the same sellers and introduce some other options.

Thanks - appreciated. We really wanted to stay under the 40k mark. We actually liked the Jacuzzi J14, but felt it really wasn’t deep enough and would end up too expensive to be on our list. Another option is to forget the swim spa idea and just get a hot tub (Beachcomber 540 hybrid4) which fits on our deck and get a separate pool, but we didn’t want to maintain two separate water ‘systems’ Pricing we have received on the models we were interested in range between 40k and 50k. Happy to have other options that could meet our needs - we are not interested in bells and whistles (lights, music, etc) we want something solid, fits us, will last and not cost us an arm and leg to heat or constantly repair.

Yeah that's the downside to the J14, at 52" its shallow, having owned a few swimmers over the years the depth was a bigger advantage than the size,

Beachcomber is a well made spa but expensive with a pretty mid to low end jetting package, they have a weird thing where they claim outrageous number of jets for instance they call the 540 model a 102 jet tub but its really a basic 30 jet tub, everyone else in the industry counts a jet as a jet they count the number of holes in each jet to make it wound good :-)

Master is a well built, same build as the jacuzzi, beachcombers and the largest maker of hot tubs and swim spas in the US or Canada. and the largest seller of swim spas in the world. the also do full foam 60" deep models for reasonable prices. they are the only one of the top 5 manufacturers that's still privately held the rest have been acquired by equity investors, when equity takes over an industry prices go up, its why jacuzzi is so much more expensive.

check out the therapool series, simple reliable and built like a tank with easily sourced parts and top end shell and plumbing systems.

Maple's a pretty decent brand overall. They're made in Canada and I believe they're part of the Trevi group now. Lower end insulation system, but the shells are mid to mid-upper range, which is actually better than a lot of the stuff out there. So it's a solid mid-tier option.

What kind of price are you seeing on the 550?

12999 plus tax canadian

not a bad price but I would spend a bit more and get a better insulation and build quality, or maybe look used. you want me to see what's in the used inventory around you?

Service on that isn't an issue in that area its a standard build with easily sourced parts and there are service centers there that are more reliable than dealers...

Im getting bill to dig in on the pricing he will reach out on email

Don,

First off, I want to acknowledge your local dealer. The fact that they've stuck with you this long without charging you and kept trying different fixes tells me they actually give a shit about their customers. That's becoming rare, so hold onto that if they've earned your trust over the years.

Now, let's talk about your actual dilemma because it's a real one, but it's not what you think it is.

You're right to be skeptical when you see a bunch of "stay away from Master Spa Expo dealers" posts online. But here's the thing nobody wants to talk about: most of that noise isn't coming from customers. It's coming from other dealers and competing brands. Why? Because Master Spa is still privately held. They're one of the only major players in this industry that isn't owned by equity investors, and because of that, their prices are three to four grand lower than everybody else's for basically the same equipment. That pisses off the rest of the industry.

Think about it from a dealer's perspective. You've got a retail store in your market, and then some guy rolls up with fifty hot tubs and thirty sales guys and sells five hundred units in one weekend. That's more than you sell in a whole year. Your sales disappear for months. Of course they're going to trash talk expos and the brand. The reviews you're reading? That's dealer warfare, not customer complaints.

When you look at the actual third-party verified customer satisfaction ratings, Master Spa ranks up there with the best of them. The stories that Master tubs fall apart or are cheap quality? That's the narrative the industry is pushing so you'll pay more for the same thing elsewhere.

Here's the real problem though: You're kind of stuck.

Your current Hot Springs setup, like most Watkins products, runs on a twenty amp and a thirty amp breaker. Master Spa, Jacuzzi, and basically everyone else uses a standard fifty amp service. If you switch to Master Spa, you're potentially looking at an electrician bill to rewire your pad. Hot Springs tells you their setup is somehow better for you, but that's bullshit. It's just a lock-in strategy so when you want to upgrade or replace it down the line, you have to buy their brand again or pay to have an electrician redo everything.

So here's my take: Your dealer sounds solid. Get a price from them. See what they'd charge for a Hot Springs unit that would fit your existing electrical setup and get them to give you terms that work.

Then come back here with the number and the model and ill do a side by side for you against couple comparable brands taking into account the likely electrical issue.

also confirm to me if you have the 2 breaker set up or the single 50 amp breaker...

Mark,

Yeah, the phone numbers and emails are on the website. I know, I know, they're a pain to find. I'll get someone to reach out to you directly and they'll take care of all your delivery questions. That's the easy part.

Now let me tell you why things work the way they do with Pure Instinct, because it's actually a pretty good reason.

That tub used to be twelve grand when it was sitting in retail stores. The reason it's not that price anymore is because we literally got Master Spa to pull it out of the dealer network entirely. That allowed us to strip 30% of the cost out of the hot tub. Think about that for a second. Thirty percent. That's a huge deal.

Here's where that thirty percent comes from. Every hot tub you see in a showroom, someone's paying for that showroom. Someone's paying for salespeople to be there to help you. Someone's paying for them to put it on the floor, maintain it, keep it running as a demo, all the advertising and marketing to get you to walk into that store in the first place. That's dealer infrastructure, and it costs money. A lot of money. That thirty percent is basically the entire cost of getting a hot tub in front of a customer.

When we approached manufacturers about doing a direct deal, Master Spa stepped up with the best tub at the best price. And the whole thing worked because we already had the traffic. We're already getting almost eighty percent of everyone looking to buy a hot tub coming through Hot Tub University. So we could strip that cost out and pass it directly to you.

The trade off is the support side looks different. You're not calling a dealer's showroom. You're calling the service number on your paperwork, and honestly, that's probably all you'll ever need to do. But here's what we added to make sure you're protected. You're in our buyer's protection service. That means if you ever have a service issue down the road and it's not handled the way it should be, you reach out to me. And then we step in, we make some phone calls, and we make noise until it gets fixed. And let me tell you, that's incredibly effective because no manufacturer wants to be on the bad side of the amount of traffic that comes through here.

So that's why it works the way it does. And I'll get someone on your delivery questions right now.

Depends on he price point and whether you want massage therapy or chill hot water time. also how big and most importantly what's the budget?

Below $11k Instinct hands down beats everything else on the market, at $8600 delivered and installed it is as good or better than most stuff in stores at $11k. better build, better parts, better plumbing reliability, better insulation better shell. its factory direct and untouchable.

Higher end, Artesian Elite and Master Twilight are solid US made brands with good jetting and solid build, Bullfrog X series, Jacuzzi, even Sundance at the right price can be good buys as well.

Jacuzzi is a legitimate manufacturer that produces hot tubs in Mexico. They're owned by a European equity investment group that also controls several other brands under the same parent company. Sun and Soul Spas, on the other hand, is not a manufacturer at all, they're a rebrander, or what we call a virtual manufacturer.

Here's how it works: they buy shipping containers of hot tubs from China for three to four thousand dollars, slap their own name and marketing on them, and by the time they're selling through dealers to consumers, they're asking twice that price. It's the worst-case scenario in the industry, and there's really no comparison between the two brands.

Jacuzzi is actually a solid buy overall, though they're overpriced primarily because of tariffs on Mexican imports combined with their expensive marketing and the layered costs that come from being part of an equity investment structure. Still, you're getting an actual manufacturer versus a rebrander.

What kind of pricing are you seeing on these two?

Lisa, the best way to buy that tub is to have me make the introduction to either the expo people or the dealer, whichever you prefer. When I get involved, you're covered under my buyer's protection service, and that's going to be a huge advantage for you.

First, tell me what price you got quoted. I can probably get you a better deal on that right off the bat.

Second, once I make the introduction, here's what the buyer's protection service actually means: if anything goes wrong and you don't get good service or they screw you around, you don't have to fight it out one-on-one. You just call me and I get involved and handle it. That's going to be way more effective than trying to sort out your own problems.

The reason is simple. We help customers buy thousands of hot tubs every year and we control tens of millions of dollars worth of hot tub purchases annually. When we contact a seller, they respond very differently than when an individual customer tries to work things out on their own. They know we're not going away and we're not a one-time customer. That leverage makes a real difference.

So send me the price you got, and let's get you taken care of the right way.

Ill have Bill reach out to help you. on the @yahoo email you provided.